Through The Creative Door

23 | Following Your Own Beat with Katanga Junior

In this episode of Through the Creative Door, host Alexis speaks with Katanga Junior, a Tanzanian-born musician whose work spans hip-hop, ragga, reggae, and indie folk. Known for his genre-blending style and creative flair, Junior shares what it means to him to create freely across styles, the inspirations behind his latest album Pamoja, and the challenges and rewards of collaborating with diverse artists. This episode dives into Junior’s journey, his passion for connecting with audiences, and the perseverance that shaped his most memorable works. It’s an inspiring look at the artistry and dedication that fuels his vibrant sound. 
If you’d like to see more, you can follow Katanga Junior on instagram; @ katangajnrmusic
 
This episode was recorded on 8 August 2024 on the lands of the Arrernte Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
 
—
Creative resources from Katanga Junior:
Pamoja Album: https://open.spotify.com/album/4ElanTMjoXqNGMvLBeiYhg?si=X6XdNngVSvKoGTeawK2oxA 
 
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
 
—---------------------
00:09 - Alexis (Host)
Hello, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. Owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. May we pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I'll be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. I'm delighted to welcome you to Through the Creative Door. 
Junior. Oh my goodness, this is so bloody exciting. I'm so excited to be chatting with you. You are such a goddamn vibe. Welcome to Through the Creative Door. 
 
01:04 - Junior (Guest)
Madam already here, thank you. Thank you for having me. I know your life is bad, good, good, good. 
 
01:14 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, it's so good. So for the listeners that don't know you, they need to 100% get amongst it and listen to all your tunes because you are just a goddamn vibe. But the synopsis of Katanga Junior, you're Tanzania born and bred now established here in Alice Springs, but you are a multi-talented bear. You play drums, you rap, you sing. You sing so many different genres. You have this beautiful band of phenomenal humans who, just in their own right, are just amazing. 
 
01:55 - Junior (Guest)
Good people, yeah, good people. 
 
01:57 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I don't know. You just do amazing stuff. Everyone needs to check you out. 
 
02:04 - Junior (Guest)
They should. 
 
02:08 - Alexis (Host)
But, to start things off. We're going to start off with what does a creative space mean to you and why? 
 
02:18 - Junior (Guest)
Creative space. It's like where I create things, where, like peaceful, it's connected to me, I feel free to do whatever I want to do. Like that is creative space to me. It feel like no boundaries, you know, like when you get like just creating things and feel free to do anything. That's like a creative space for me. 
 
02:41 - Alexis (Host)
Do you feel like that needs to be a peaceful physical space, or is it more of a mental space for you? Do you think? 
 
02:51 - Junior (Guest)
I think it needs to be a peaceful place, because when I create, I like to be me, yeah, yeah. And after then it can be physical, you know, but for when I created, I like to feel and to be connected to what I'm doing yeah, yeah, yeah. 
 
03:09 - Alexis (Host)
And is is it like, do you need to have instruments around you or do you feel like you can just like? Create from thin air. 
 
03:20 - Junior (Guest)
It depends, so I always have my guitar whenever I'm writing songs, because I feel like sometimes I sing song, but I feel better when I have the guitar because it's shaped me in tune, because I feel my vocal is not on tune till I hear instrument, because when someone like tell me sing, now I can sing. 
 
03:40 - Alexis (Host)
Really no, no, I don't believe that at all, I never tell anyone. Guys don't say anything. 
 
03:50 - Junior (Guest)
Yeah, yeah. So it's like I need guitar or beat. 
 
03:58 - Alexis (Host)
Ah, okay. 
 
03:59 - Junior (Guest)
So that's where I feel like I need this and this, and then that's, and then maybe pen and paper, and then score done. But most of it is guitar. If I don't have guitar, I have to have beat. And then I can write, 
 
04:13 - Alexis (Host)
Bcause I know you play drums, yeah, yeah. Do you sing while you play drums? Or do you have to lay it down? 
 
04:19 - Junior (Guest)
Yeah, I kind of sing while I'm'm playing, but I never share it on stage. So my dream was like this year. I said maybe I should start playing drums to a couple songs. 
 
04:32 - Alexis (Host)
Yes, you should. Oh my god that'd be amazing. 
 
04:36 - Junior (Guest)
I did like a couple few weeks ago. I had to open the mic and everyone like said, oh, I never see you do this. I said, oh, I don't know. 
 
04:43 - Alexis (Host)
Oh but you're so good at it. 
 
04:45 - Junior (Guest)
Yeah, no, no, try not good at it. 
 
04:52 - Alexis (Host)
So modest, so bloody modest. 
 
04:55 - Junior (Guest)
Yeah, yeah. 
 
04:57 - Alexis (Host)
Now you have released some phenomenal music and it's so goddamn catchy, Junior, seriously so catchy, yeah. But for you personally, is there a body of work or a piece of work that you are the most proud of, and why do you think that is and how did it come about? 
 
05:19 - Junior (Guest)
Maybe I'll say two. Maybe the first song that established me, like Mapanzi Business is, like that's my main song. I always remember it's the song that take me, made me who I am till today. Because for what I'm singing the song to the story and everything to the song then it make people connected to the song before even know me and before even see me. Yeah, so to that Mapanzi Business song. And another one is Pamoja. Album is the things that I'm proud of. Like I, when I'm rapping in Alice Springs, I see, like so many talented people and art creativity. So everywhere I go and I love open mics because that's where I find people which I can collab with, I can jam on stage with and I can collab with, I can jam on stage with and I can just so when I rap in Alice Springs and I just keep with oh there's this guy, oh there's this, oh there's another one, oh there's another singer there.
 
06:13 - Alexis (Host)
I feel like we met at Jumping Jam. Yeah, yeah, yeah, years ago. 
 
06:17 - Junior (Guest)
Yeah, it is, it is and Pamoja album is something that I'm really grateful and I'm happy with that, because just collabing with so many artists in Alice Springs and I feel like even if I'm gone, that's my main thing I'm proud of, like collabing with so many people in one album.
 
06:40 - Alexis (Host)
It's a beautiful record. Those listening get amongst it. It's absolutely stunning. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah oh wonderful. On the flip side of things that we're proud of, or things that you're proud of, is there something over your career that has challenged your creativity? At all like and and do you think there's a major lesson that you've sort of been able to find from that?
 
07:11 - Junior (Guest)
Challenge. Oh yeah, maybe I said don't collaborate with so many people, you are rejected. 
 
07:19 - Alexis (Host)
The flip side of yeah, yeah, yeah. 
 
07:22 - Junior (Guest)
It's like, sit down on, talk to this person because I want to work with them, because when I work, it's like I've got the producer even as tell them like this is what I want to do and this and that, and even they didn't trust me for that project to work because it depends so many people in one project, like in one album, like I want a future, this guy, this, them, them, them a future because she's beautiful and she sings good, and this, this, and they're like too many people in one project. I think maybe it was the main challenge. I had to like take people out and bring them in, but I want to hear them, I want to sit down with them, I want to hear their vocal and I want because there's some people already locked in, but their vocal and one because there's some people already locked in. But it's like even the last day I had to give them the dead time and it's kind of like we got one hour before finishing. All of the people came that last day because I'd say, hey, today's the last day, please can you anyone who's coming? If you're not coming today, you're getting replaced by someone else. 
 
08:23
And the last hour we got a gig of hat day we playing for Desert Festival I think, and I got like a few minutes before I got to sound check and I got like four people so I didn't have even enough time to listen. And just sing, sing, sing and walk out. Another one come prepared, sing, sing, sing, walk out and walk out. And then we all me and the producer we were playing that same day, I think, yeah, and we had to walk out. I said we'll listen tomorrow and luckily, come the next day, everything's out. So that's the main thing, like I think maybe don't feel just too many artists in one project and then maybe that's my advice Otherwise. But now I'm really happy for what it is because I really like everyone, diversity to the music and everything. 
 
09:05 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, do you think that a part of that challenge of having to work with so many competing calendars? And timelines and things like that, like do you think that that made you have to compromise your art at all, or were you able to still? It was more stressful, but were you still able to? 
 
09:24 - Junior (Guest)
Well, still nothing changed. So I think there's only one song. The other guys then pulled themselves out and I said I'll sing this one song, and I sing the song by myself, and the song won awards. 
 
09:35
This is the best song of the year. So maybe it was meant to be that. And I never regret. So nothing changed, even if some days I know someone is coming but they're not coming. But I'm with the producer, I tell them okay, if they're not coming, I'll do this, this, this, this, this, this. So we never waste time, so I know what the picture I'm going to paint. So it's like, even if they're not here, so I'll fix this, I'll fix that, I'll play another song, I'll do BV, I'll do this, I'll do this, I'll do this. So it's like, if you know what you're doing, you just leave that spot. Anyone can come and fill that gap, so you just do what you can do to finish the art, because it's your own picture. So you're drawing your own thing, yeah, and you're trying at the end of the day. 
 
10:30 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, like what is the dream. 
 
10:30 - Junior (Guest)
What is your vision for the project and making sure that that actually comes to fruition? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is and it's really it's. It's hard, but you end up like adding more hours with producer because some songs you already plan. This song is coming out next time, like next week, so if we don't finish today, it's like push, everything push everyone, because everyone is waiting, already pay the produce. They're mastering guys and this and this the mixing guys, so it's like you have to go, still focus on what you're doing. You know. 
 
10:59 - Alexis (Host)
So I know we touched on a little bit about at the start. When we talked about creative space, we also talked about the instruments and things that you know you like having around you. But when we talk about objects, do you have anything like sentimental or anything in particular that you sort of like having with you when you're creating? 
 
11:21 - Junior (Guest)
Oh, I don't know, I think maybe pen and paper. Let's just say that that's the main. I'm still like, got so many books, like journals, yeah, journals like this I write everywhere because even if I'm at work or doing the meetings, sometimes because it gets boring. 
 
11:39 - Alexis (Host)
Adulting. 
 
11:43 - Junior (Guest)
Or PD something for work. I'm also have another job to cover everything up. So it's like I'll PD there and you feel like the way this going it's too much, so right here. And so it's come challenge me. One day I said I want that something. I write that day. So I just go through 20 books, I'm just looking for one thing and I open, and I open until I find it. 
 
12:05 - Alexis (Host)
Do you date them or like nah, you just write them and then get another one, nah. 
 
12:11 - Junior (Guest)
I don't. Because I write. I used to challenge myself sometimes I write every day. So even if I write dates, it's like I write everywhere. 
 
12:22 - Alexis (Host)
I love this. I love that challenge. I don't know if I could do it yeah I, I think I could do it for maybe a week and then yeah, yeah, yeah, it is sometimes like I just follow my brain telling me to do so, that's all. 
 
12:35 - Junior (Guest)
When I'm creating things, I don't create what people want me to create, so I create what I want. So it's like this week I'll say like, okay, what am I doing? It's like learn this and this and this and follow it, and I don't limit myself like only do this way or this way, this way, try so many different way, and which way to work? So, yeah, yeah, most. Let's go back to the question. So I use pen and paper the most. Yeah, and they're everywhere yeah, I
 
12:57 - Alexis (Host)
I love this Now, junior, if you could give one piece of wisdom, one nugget of advice to another creative, what would it be? 
 
13:12 - Junior (Guest)
Just do your best and don't limit yourself like you. Some people I see they limit themselves. They just kind of like go in one way so you can just try so many different things and see how it work and so many way. There's so many way of making things, of learning things and creative way. But do what you want to do. Whatever you want to do, just try and go with it and see at the end the result and if it's not working, just stop for a bit and go back again and look at it and see how it feels, how it sounds, where it's going. And yeah, not big advice, but do what you can do to do your art and don't limit yourself of what you can do. 
 
13:54 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, that is perfect. That is perfect, it's so true. It's so true. If someone wanted to do what you do, it's so true. Yeah, if someone wanted to do what you do, what advice would you give in regards to like resources or books or podcasts or courses or like? Is there anything that you have found for your music business or you as a creative in your artistic you know development? Yeah creative in your artistic, you know development. Yeah, is there anything that you've sort of? Lyou know you'd advise would be a good starting point for somebody else.
 
14:32 - Junior (Guest)
I just say, like it doesn't matter what you're doing, just be good at what you're doing, just practice and practice. And even because, and know what you're doing, be good at what you're doing, just practice and practice. And even because, and know what you're doing, be good at it and know what you're doing and know what you want at the end of it, like it doesn't mean that I know what I want. 
 
14:56
Sometimes things change. It's like just don't look at other people what they're doing, just look yourself what you want to do. It's like many people are going to compete with other people and many people like think, oh, I want to be like this guy, I want to do like this, I want to do so you end up follow people what they're doing. You end up forget what you're doing and like you have to know what you want and what you want to do at that time. So don't look at other people what they're doing, just look at yourself, what you want to do and how you're going to do it and be good at it, because at the end of the day, they'll look at you if you're doing good and they'll come to join you. 
 
15:35 - Alexis (Host)
Very true, very true. One last question. If you could have any other creative come on this podcast and answer these questions, who would it be and why? 
 
15:49 - Junior (Guest)
I'd say maybe you have to interview Billy Black. 
 
15:52 - Alexis (Host)
So for those listening, Billy Black is a phenomenal guitarist here, based in Alice and plays with Junior, plays with lots of people. 
 
16:02 - Junior (Guest)
Yeah, yeah. 
 
16:03 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah. 
 
16:09 - Junior (Guest)
I think he shaped me a little bit because I believe in learning and work with the people who have the same ideas and what we want to do here. So he always say, okay, you have to know your things, and so he helped me so much to know more. It's not just like be there and just be there and go deep to it and Always so you always. I think we kind of think the same. But not he always say like oh, you did this well, today, because I was thinking about this, I say like once, everything is fine. We can all go the same way, like if I can feel the music, I can feel we can all go the same way. Like if I can feel the music, I can feel everything. We can all go the same way. So I feel like Billy Black is the right person to interview next, because he knows so many people, he travels so many places around Australia. World of experience and the world and so many things, so it will be good to connect with him, yeah
 
17:05 - Alexis (Host)
Oh my goodness, Junior, it is just such a pleasure chatting with you. Thank you so much for coming through the creative door. This has been the best! 
 
17:15 - Junior (Guest)
Thank you for having me. 
 
17:21 - Alexis (Host)
 
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of Through the Creative Door. If you enjoy our episodes and find value in them, consider supporting us by making a donation. Just visit buymeacoffeecom/through the creative door or via the link in our Instagram bio where you can choose an amount and even write us a little message. Every little bit helps and we truly appreciate all of your support. But if you can't donate, no worries, you can still help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends and family and leaving a review on your favorite platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community and we'll catch you on the next episode. Bye. 

22 | Follow The Knowledge with Darcy Davis

In this episode of Through the Creative Door, Alexis sits down with multi-talented music producer, pianist, DJ, studio owner and fellow podcast host of “Music My Mates Make”, Darcy Davis, also known as D-Day. The two dive deep into the creative process, from Darcy’s journey building his own recording studio in Alice Springs, to his passion for creating music in unconventional spaces. Darcy shares an inspiring story about stepping up to lead a family legacy project, recording an album in Pidginjarra language, and the pride he feels for preserving Indigenous culture through music. Join Alexis and Darcy for an honest conversation about creative flow, overcoming self-doubt and how pushing through challenges can bring out your best work.
If you’d like to see more, you can follow Darcy on instagram; @ darcydavis
 
This episode was recorded on 5 August 2024 on the lands of the Arrernte Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
 
…
Creative resources from Darcy:
UPK7 Album: https://open.spotify.com/album/6YGdxqYMOLcU2z4ha7FJZT?si=qO5vRNwJSLum1zZ6mtGwxQ 
 
BOOKS:
Mastery by Robert Greene 
The Creative Act: A Way Of Being by Rick Rubin 
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
—--------------------------
 
00:09 - Alexis (Host)
Hello, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. Owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. May we pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I'll be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. I'm delighted to welcome you to Through the Creative Door. 
 
Hello, darcy. 
 
00:50 - Darcy (Guest)
How are you, alexis? 
 
00:52 - Alexis (Host) 
Good, how are you? 
 
00:53 
Yeah, really good. Thanks for having me on your show. 
 
00:55 - Alexis (Host)
I am so chuffed that I get to welcome you through the Creative Door podcast. 
 
01:02 - Darcy (Guest)
It feels good to step right through that door. I just felt like a different feeling sensation good to step right through that door together. 
 
01:04 - Alexis (Host)
Well, I'm actually very grateful that I get to be in your creative space in uh, but we will talk about that more as we get through the podcast. I feel like I need to enlighten the listeners a little bit. A bit about you. For some they may know you as Darcy, but aka D-Day, D-Day. 
 
01:31 - Darcy (Guest)
D-Davis. Yeah, kind of stuck around that nickname. 
 
01:36 - Alexis (Host)
But you are such a talented bear. Such a talented bear. You're a music producer. You're a phenomenal piano player, or pianist correct terminology You're an MC, you DJ so much I mean. You've also been radio hosts in many different iterations. You've been in so many different ensembles and, if I couldn't add any more to the rap sheet, you also have a beautiful studio called Red House recording studio here in Alice Springs where you get to, you know, be creative in all of the ways and you also have your own podcast which is awesome. 
 
02:19 - Darcy (Guest)
You were my first guest on my first podcast and now you've just eclipsed me altogether. 
 
02:24 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, stop it. You're inspiring me, thank you, but your podcast is Music My Mates Make, which is so inspiring and just fills my cup every time I get to listen, which is such a pleasure. 
 
02:36 - Darcy (Guest)
You were my first guest, so you really got it rolling. In fact, I've conked out a little bit and you're just like a powerhouse just striving through, so you're inspiring me. How are you doing this? How are you doing that? They're kind of like waves, aren't they like? They come in and out and one person comes in surfing this wave and then they might like get dumped into the ocean and the next person catches a wave. And yeah, hopefully we check in with each other and inspire each other. So I'm feeling super motivated now after seeing you again. 
 
03:08 - Alexis (Host)
Excellent, excellent. That's what we want to hear. 
 
03:10 - Darcy (Guest)
Yeah, I love it. 
 
03:12 - Alexis (Host)
Going to launch into the first question. Okay, let's launch. I feel like this is a difficult one because you have such a broad spectrum of avenues of creating. But what does a creative space mean to you, and why? 
 
03:31 - Darcy (Guest)
Creative space is just anywhere that you can kind of intentionally set out to do your thing. It's a safe space. It's usually quiet for me, or somewhere that's not. I don't have all the regular distractions from life like people trying to get a hold of you to do something, or, you know social media or somewhere that you can kind of just block out and go into that space. 
 
03:59
Hopefully, when you hit the flow, the flow state, when you stop thinking about time you enter, you go through the creative door, metaphorically speaking, and for me it's like it's not always that the inspiration is going to be there, but you sort of start moving the proverbial paint around the canvas and then little things start to take shape and I think, yeah, I, I like to, usually like to do something, like have a vacuum up or just clear the space a little bit and then know that I'm entering in like intentionally into creating something. 
 
04:38
It's not always there, like I believe a little bit in the muse, that the muse kind of might be that spirit which whispers the cool ideas into you when you're ready for it. So showing up and being ready for the muse to maybe hopefully gift you a good idea or not, or just showing up ready might be enough. You might not always catch an idea that day, but creative space is somewhere I go into intentionally to let the yeah, let creativity come through 
 
05:21 - Alexis (Host) 
And do you find that you like coming into studio space is more feasible in that way, or really just purposefully coming into a space? 
 
05:26
Well, yeah, obviously I love being in the studio in the Red House, the building my dad made, and when I was quite young and grew into being able to know how to use it and operate it professionally. But a creative space could be somewhere also that could be quite transient. Or you might be in the middle of a chaotic environment, for example, like on a plane. I like to throw on my headphones and crack open Ableton and just go into a creative space there. I like being in a moving space there or on. I like moving. I like being in a moving space, like on a train really, or somewhere like that, and being able to throw down just on that, um, on my laptop alone, without any other equipment. Sometimes I'm pretty good at playing the the keyboard on a computer. 
 
06:25 - Alexis (Host)
On a computer? Can you teach me how to do that. That's tough.
 
06:22
No, I kind of it's funny. Sometimes I'm in here and we have this big studio full of equipment and I'm like let me just play this down. They're like Darcy man, you know you have all of this stuff. I like to be resourceful. Whatever your space is, that's the best environment. But I do like, yeah, sometimes, being in a cafe or on a plane, some type of public transport, I feel like I have no other choice than to go into that and it kind of maybe accelerates me into that creative space. So I like to be able to be wherever and still tap into that. 
 
07:04 - Alexis (Host)
I love that. 
 
07:06 - Darcy (Guest)
If I'm making beats, obviously I can't lay down vocals like you. There's a different emphasis on what I'm creating to you, but I like making beats on public transport as well. 
 
07:18 - Alexis (Host)
I love this. I love this so much. I guess there's a great segue into the next question. 
 
07:24 - Darcy (Guest)
Nice, good segue. 
 
07:30 - Alexis (Host)
If you could choose something out of all the body of work that you've done, what is something that you're most proud of creating and why? 
 
07:42 - Darcy (Guest)
Well, I usually don't feel proud. I usually feel like I'm onto the next thing. In fact, like my whole lifetime has been trying to get accustomed to feeling okay with something that I have created and put out there and, yeah, where we're on worst critics all the time. 
 
08:09
So I feel like I've hit a point where I can tolerate hearing myself, let alone being really proud of things. But my own personal breakthrough was and it's, the thing that I'm most proud of achieving not necessarily the end result but the process that I went through. So I'll just talk a bit about that. Last year I was working on this UPK project, which is a project that started before I was even born, in 1989, out at Morijulu, which is the community of Uluru, Ayers Rock. They brought a 16-track tape machine out there and they made this Music for Health project, which ended up being a really popular record, especially on the AP wirelands where my parents have lived and worked as teachers since the 80s before coming to Alice, and so that project it's been through a bunch of different versions since then. Usually about every six years there's a new one, and so usually it's been my dad and I collaborating on it, in fact, on UPK6. 
 
09:30
I said to dad, like did you know that one day I was gonna be the one recording this project? He said yeah. I said what? So you sorta like engineered me to be the engineer of this project? He said yeah, of course, why else do you have children? He was just joking, but you know, last year dad was going through a lot of health problems and his heart got down to like 20% capacity. We were worried for his life, actually legitimately, because he was close he was close to meeting his maker and they almost cancelled the whole project. They said should we cancel it or do you think that you can go on without your dad, sort of thing, and knowing how much money and effort the organization had gone into the whole thing, I said you know what? I think I can do it and went out there and yeah, it was on top of setting up all the mics running between the rooms. So we create like a bush studio with heshen and we like build it off the side of like an old house and so building the studio and then setting up, and then usually the role that my dad would do would be because he's good at language at Pidginjarri, he speaks fluently he would be the one constructing the songs and I'd be kind of there to hit record or throw ideas in. But it wasn't all my responsibility. So this time it was like all right, you got to write the songs, you got to be there in a language that I wasn't that good at. But now, as a result of that, it was like a massive trial by fire and something that I was grateful that I could experience while my dad was still alive. It's sort of like experiencing like what it'd be like when he's gone to carry that on, but he was still hanging on for his life. So, yeah, I'm. 
 
11:21
I wrote my first song in Pidginjarra language, which is, I feel, proud of that as a white fella, that I have family out there coaching me, schooling me. And I said to one of my bros there, Dwayne. I said, oh, I might need to get a dictionary for Pidginjarra. He said, forget the dictionary, wear your dictionary, just ask us any, any questions. 
 
11:45
And it was this beautiful collaboration that happened and them knowing my dad in the whole story what they call the story of this project and then being able to rise above and still create an album, basically doing all of the roles and um now becoming kind of like a different person through that process of my language has gotten heaps better. 
 
12:15
I wrote another song. So I did two songs on the album that were collaborations, because obviously I can't write a whole song in language, but, um, come up with the concept and, yeah, the, the, the pride that I feel was that I persevered through that and I managed to do all of those roles in such a massive project and didn't drop the ball and dad survived and yeah, all of that was very, yeah, it was really tough, one of the most difficult things that I've been through, and so I just feel personal pride that, yeah, this like a legacy there that I can take forward and had breakthroughs with the Aboriginal language that I feel proud, as an Australian, that I can really delve deep into that language and I'm determined to become fluent. 
 
13:10
I speak Chinese, so I want to become fluent in Pidginjarra, like my dad. I can see it in my mind being able to interact and be fluent. It just feels like this massive achievement on the horizon which I'm going to get through. So, yeah, to answer your question, I feel proud of that. It's out on all platforms now you can have a look. Upk7, it's a concept album. 
 
13:32 - Alexis (Host)
We will make sure to put it in the show notes and everyone has to listen yeah so, on the flip side of things that we're proud of, what do you think has challenged you the most in creativity and what do you think the major lesson was? 
 
13:50 - Darcy (Guest)
I have this kind of like a lazy susan of skills that I'm rotating around and adding something to this one. I'm working on my DJing now. I'm working on my rapping. I'm trying to be a producer. I want to get better at these mic placements and compression and stuff. 
 
14:07
So the most challenging thing is like being all of those roles is hard. And then there's literally a project, like I did, where I'm literally all those roles at once and the difficult thing is like, yeah, people can, oh, you're good at all these things, that then having something to show for each one, or the time it takes for you to actually really master that one area when you have a lot that you're trying to digest and make sense of. So the difficult thing is like finding my identity within all those areas. Like some people will see me on the street and they say, oh, you're that rapper. Or they might say, oh, you're the dj or you're the piano guy and it's hard to make all those things work. Or how do you carve out an authentic identity when you're always jumping around mediums in a way? 
 
15:10
So I'm hoping that it becomes like a. It gets to the point where I'm can transcend all of those things, and all of those things naturally weave into something greater than and people seek me out to be that guy who knows all of those disciplines and has a different, unique perspective, where people can headhunt me to be that person, to be involved in that project, or they want me in the studio because of the energy that I bring, and they also also know that I'm good with lyrics and I'm good with arrangements and that I have this type of background. So, yeah, the challenge is making all those things work together and unify them, have them to be reinforced with one another, and not that I'm spread too thin amongst all of that. 
 
16:08 - Alexis (Host)
Now, this could be as simple as an instrument, but I'm hoping that maybe there's something maybe more sentimental. Well, who knows? I shouldn't lead you into this question Is there an object that you can't live without when you're creating, and why? 
 
16:30 - Darcy (Guest)
I wouldn't say it's an object, but what I like is a degree of chance.
 
16:41
So it's like sometimes you just have to throw paint at the wall or at the canvas, um, and not really have a clue what it's going to achieve. But, um, to have a degree of like, let's see what this does. Or let's do something that you wouldn't normally do, like let's try and put this channel effects on the one that it's not meant for. Or let's like put so, let's put some chance into the mix, so it might be just the way that you put your hands down on the piano might give you the key that you're arriving at. It might be like flicking open to a book, a page in a book, and going this is my word that I'm drawing something from, or having some degree of chance, because I feel like that's how the ideas can get through. You heard of like happy accidents, like I think there's kind of a science to happy accidents, being able to roll the dice in a way and see what will come, and that might be your first spark of creativity. 
 
17:56 - Alexis (Host)
If you could give one piece of advice, one nugget of gold to another creative, what would it be? 
 
18:05 - Darcy (Guest)
It relates to what I'm saying like follow the knowledge, go for learning and skills. Like prioritize that above short-term monetary gain. If you can always keep going, all right, I'm comfortable with this. Now it's time to be uncomfortable again. I'm gonna learn this next thing. Or I know my weakness is in my voice, or like I'm not for my beat, sound standard and stock standard and average. Or finding like, oh, my sound design skills aren't really good. I need to spend some time creating sounds and or whatever it is. That is your weakness. Keep stepping into that weak point and you'll find if you keep doing that, then you have like a broader and broader vantage point and creative standpoint to get the ideas out of your head. So I would say keep stepping into your weaknesses. Always, prioritize learning over short-term monetary gain and the money will follow in the future yep, wise words, wise words. 
 
19:21 - Alexis (Host)
Uh, well, off the back of that, if you're talking about learning and education and upskilling. If you have any other resources or references podcasts.
 
19:27 - Darcy (Guest)
yeah, one of the books that really influenced me was Robert Greene's Mastery. I don't know if you've read that one. No, I haven't. It kind of gets into people's lives who, like Beethoven and people at the top of their field in the NBA and pilots, and kind of how they went on their journey to become masters of their field, and oftentimes there would be three or more things that they've mastered, which then gives them a unique vantage point to have a breakthrough in a certain area. So, yeah, that's been very influential. 
 
20:13 - Alexis (Host)
Last but not least, one last question If you could hear anyone come on this podcast and answer these questions who would it be, and why? 
 
20:25 - Darcy (Guest)
Well, I'm a big fan of Rick Rubin. 
 
20:28
I would love I would love for him to go through the creative door. When I was doing this project out on the lands, I was listening to his book, the the creative act. I'm more of a audiobook type of person because if I start reading I'll just go to sleep. It's like valium just out, um, but I love listening to stuff. I'm a real listener. So, yeah, I listened to his book and some of the ideas that he had were like straight out of my mind, like we were speaking the same language, like we were cosmic family members or something. Stuff that I haven't well, I've articulated to people. And, um, he put it into words in this book and it's a lot of the time was yeah, and that really fueled me through that process. But, yeah, anyone like that dr dre, would be great. 
 
21:22
I'm just talking about my influences yeah um Jack White, but in terms of Australia, I mean, there's a guy who lives in Melbourne named um Lockie, Lockie Lanius. I think he's the best musician in Australia if not one of the best in the world. You'll see him all around Melbourne. In fac he's so humble he should have meteoric success. He's just a true genius. He's a masterful jazz guitarist and singer. He can do literally everything. He would be my choice for a local guest. Yeah, if I can find him be elusive, I'll put you in contact. 
 
22:16 - Alexis (Host)
Thanks, oh my goodness Darcy, this has been such a pleasure. Thanks, oh my goodness Darcy, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and giving such grace in these beautiful answers. 
 
22:33 - Darcy (Guest)
Oh, my pleasure. 
 
22:34 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, it's just been so lovely chatting with you. 
 
22:36 - Darcy (Guest)
Thanks for making space. 
 
22:38 - Alexis (Host)
Yes, love it. 
 
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of Through the Creative Door. If you enjoy our episodes and find value in them, consider supporting us by making a donation. Just visit buymeacoffeecom/through the creative door or via the link in our Instagram bio where you can choose an amount and even write us a little message. Every little bit helps and we truly appreciate all of your support. But if you can't donate, no worries, you can still help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends and family and leaving a review on your favorite platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community and we'll catch you on the next episode. Bye. 

21 | Throw The Rules Away with Anthea Palmer

In this episode of Through the Creative Door, Alexis interviews Anthea Palmer, a versatile creative—musician, mentor, teacher, venue owner, and Editor-in-Chief of Jimmy Hornet Magazine. Anthea shares key insights into her artistic journey, highlighting the importance of finding inspiration through tranquillity and personal space. She explains how moments of calm allow her creativity to thrive and provide space for innovation. Anthea also emphasises the freedom that comes from breaking away from conventional rules, encouraging artists to embrace their unique visions. 
 
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Anthea on instagram; @ jimmyhornetmagazine
 
This episode was recorded on 14 May 2024 on the lands of the Woiworung Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
 
…
Creative resources from Anthea:
Notion - visual organisation tool 
 
BOOKS for marketing: 
> anything by Seth Godin
> anything by Gary Vaynerchuk
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
 
—--------------------------
00:09 - Alexis (Host)
Hello, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. May we pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. I’m delighted to welcome you to Through the Creative Door. 
Hello, Anthea Palmer. 
 
00:52 - Anthea
Hello, Alexis Naylor
 
00:53 - Alexis 
I am so chuffed to be chatting with you. You are such a vibe and I am in such awe of you. Oh, my goodness, that's so sweet. Welcome through the creative door as I come to your house. 
 
01:06 - Anthea (Guest)
Through my creative door. 
 
01:07 - Alexis (Host)
To your creative space. But before I launch into questions, I wanted to start with a little bit about you, which I mean. You are so multifaceted and there's so much to your career and you as a human being. But even just to touch the surface, um, you, you, you are the editor-in-chief of Jimmy Hornet's magazine, which is amazing. And I feel like, are you in the like the first year? 
 
01:42 - Anthea 
Just through the first year
 
01:44 - Alexis 
 Yeah, amazing, amazing. Um, you know, for those who may or may not know, you have a history of being an amazing musician and singer. You've been a teacher, a coach, a mentor, and you've also owned multiple you know music venues in overseas and here in Australia. And, yeah, I feel like I'm only touching the surface of who you are. 
 
02:09 - Anthea (Guest)
You get to an age and there's enough years that you've done a lot. That's all it is. 
 
02:11 - Alexis 
Have I missed anything? What have I missed? 
 
02:14 - Anthea
I've had a couple of art galleries as well over the years and I did do a stint in the corporate world of communications. But yeah, that's, that's probably all of it pretty much.
 
02:28 - Alexis (Host)
I feel like there's just so much is this sea of amazingness, that is, Anthea Palmer. But, um, so we'll go into, get into the first question. Yep, first question, and because you have such a array of history behind you, this is probably well, I don't know, maybe you have a different answer for, for a different uh, life, life force. But what does a creative space mean to you, and why? 
 
02:55 - Anthea (Guest)
um, it's a really interesting question. I think twofold. Firstly, personally, as a creative person, it means a lot to me to have an environment that's inspiring and comfortable. People find creativity in different places, and some people like chaos and stress, and out of that chaos and stress comes a creative flow. But for me it's far more about a bit of tranquility and I like to be surrounded with things that I love. And so, yeah, on a personal level, it means a lot. I've got to sort of have things ordered and things I love around me and be comfortable in my environment to really, um, work at my peak. 
 
03:52 - Alexis (Host)
When you, when you say things that you love, like would that be pieces of art or? 
 
03:54 - Anthea 
yeah largely art
 
03:56 - Alexis 
yeah wow, have you got a particular piece of art that's like a bit of a anchor for you, or is it a particular artist?
 
04:03 - Anthea (Guest)
I like all of my art. Really I'm looking around the room, not a particular piece, and not necessarily art, I mean, just although I do look around there's a lot of art in the room, but you know I like colour. And then, on a business level, environment has been a really important part of my brand for years and years because I've had live music venues and galleries, and so that even the magazine now it's sort of an extension of the brand that's been building through space, through spaces over the years. So from that point of view, yeah, environment's really important to the brand and that's what's helped sort of build the vibe, I think. 
 
04:59 - Alexis (Host)
For those who are listening, where did this sort of Jimmy Hornet start Like? Where was the first space or idea that you had that name, that name? 
 
05:15 - Anthea (Guest)
Well, the name came when I had the chandelier room, my first venue, and at the same time I was coaching musicians and sort of as a sideline and to help, you know, to be useful, and at that time I thought of the name Jimmy Hornet as like an avatar, for, like my ideal client and it was, you know, like a die-hard creative that just had to create you know that they couldn't not create and at the time it was a musician that I had in mind or that I was working with. But and then I sort of forgot about the name and the first venue was called the Chandelier Room because it was a big factory space with a lot of antique chandeliers. Um, you know for a fact it was a beautiful space yeah, it was in the end. 
 
06:11
It was cool, um. And then I moved to China, mainland Dhina, and I opened venue there and I would normally have just probably called it the chandelier room and gone with the same vibe and kept the same branding. But when I got there I realized I was in the lighting manufacturing center of the world. And, fortunately, local entrepreneurs said to me you really need some marketing advice because this is China. You know, it's like when the Chinese come here and call their business something that doesn't make sense to us, you know which, and we laugh. Well, that happens with foreigners in. China all the time. Yeah, so um. For instance, if I had called it the chandelier room in the middle of the
 
06:49 - Alexis
People knocking, being like where is your warehouse? where's your chandelier? 
 
07:00 - Anthea
Exactly that's what would have happened. So they were like there's, just because it would have been the french light, called the french light in character translation. So anyway, so we had to come up with a name that would work in china. And we, oh, we worked and worked and worked all these names. 
 
07:18
That went on and on and um, the poor little marketing man was really pulling his hair out and then, sort of last resort, I said, oh, look, the only other name I can think of is Jimmy Hornet, which is sort of a silly name from the past. And he got really excited about it because Jimmy is a well-known Western name in China and it has very nice characters. It's Jimmy, and so he said Jimmy works. And then Hornet, there's very nice characters for Lucky B and of course, if you can have a lucky character in China, you know it's very favourable. And the character for Lucky that he chose also means musical note. 
 
08:04
So he was like super excited and apparently all the characters are very well balanced and everything it was meant to be. It was meant to be. All the characters are very well balanced and everything it was meant to be it was meant to be. So it got, it was called Jimmy Hornet or Jimmy Ray Fung in in Mandarin, and when I moved back to Australia I just thought I'm not rebranding again, and so I kept the name. So then the venue here was called Jimmy Hornet as well, and now the magazine's called Jimmy Hornet. 
 
08:31 - Alexis (Host)
I love that. No, it's beautiful, it's lovely to, and I think that's the thing about this podcast is the journey of creativity is not straightforward. Yeah, that's very true. Things come to the forefront and then they subside and then they come to the forefront again and I I think you sharing that story is just yeah. 
 
08:58 - Anthea (Guest)
you've got to sort of go with the flow, I mean in life and in creativity and everything really. Yeah. So that's how it came about. I've ditched the Chinese characters. They serve their purpose.
 
09:10 - Alexis (Host)
I think this next question is going to be a hard one, but then maybe it won't be. What are you most proud of creating? 
 
09:20 - Anthea (Guest)
It is a really hard question because I'm proud of lots of things actually that I've created. I'm proud of the spaces that I've created. So I guess interior design, design, but also venue design, particularly like third venue. I was good at it by then because I'd had two tests, although the China venue was beautiful. So I'm proud of that. I'm really proud of the magazine because it's new to me and I'm learning as I go, learning so much and it's really stretched me creatively and I'm really proud of it. Yeah, I mean I've just released Volume 5 and I think it's the best one. So I do feel like I mean I like some more than others for lots of reasons and they like my children. I know you're not supposed to have favorites, but I sort of do, um yeah, but I am really proud of it and excited about about it. Um, so I would say the magazine, yay. 
 
10:26 - Alexis (Host)
I love that. I love that, on the flip side of something that you're proud of, what is something that has challenged your creativity and what do you reckon the major lesson was from it? 
 
10:44 - Anthea (Guest)
um, it sounds a bit dull to heart. Back to the magazine, but that the reason I'm saying that is because I had no background. I have no formal background in design at all. I've just lucky, I've got a good eye for things. And nor have I got a background in publishing or printing or anything involved in being a magazine publisher. 
 
11:07
So I had to teach myself everything from scratch and I think the lesson I learned and when I think back it's a lesson that served me well through throughout everything I've done really creatively and that is sort of throw the rules away, because you know, there's a lot of people in the magazine industry that think people, things have to be done a certain way, even if it's like font size and index pages and referencing, and I mean there's obviously some things that are essential to a publication. But who says they have to be done the same way? And the magazine is quite different from most other magazines. And that is because I just thought, no, I'm not going to worry about learning all the rules, I'm just going to do it the way I want to do it and let it sort of progress, you know, naturally. So yeah, I would say, don't get too caught up in like the expectation or the rules that are already set in place. And that's been a really big lesson
 
12:20 - Alexis (Host)
Did you? ever feel at all pressure to abide by any of the rules? 
 
12:25 - Anthea (Guest)
Yeah, definitely. I mean, like any industry, there's a level of it that can be a bit pretentious, and I'm sure there are some. I mean there's a lot of like high art magazines and I'm not a high art magazine at all, but there are a lot of beautiful high art posh magazines and they would be bigger sticklers for, you know, I guess, the legacy of magazine layout and that sort of stuff, a particular aesthetic, and exactly yeah whereas, yeah, I'm not and I I don't really care about it, I just care about how the end product looks. 
 
13:05
I don't really care about whether people are going to go. You know, tut, tut. I mean, I've had, I have had online complaints, oh not um, you know, not awful, awful. But somebody did say it looked like an adolescent school project. And somebody said I just can't understand why you would use such and such a font at such and such a size. And I'm like, well, because I thought it looked good. But you're going to get that with everything. It doesn't matter what you know, what you do or how you're putting yourself out there. There's always going to be some criticism. 
 
13:44 - Alexis (Host)
Oh my goodness, it's so funny how I mean I can empathise with that. I released a song with a friend of mine and we've got a matching music video, which we're both very proud of doing. But yeah, the criticism of, oh, you're too close on your face or you're too like, it's like everything's critiqued. It's like you're damned if you do, damned if you don't really.
 
14:05 - Anthea (Guest)
Exactly, and you know, sometimes you look at the person that's made the comment and just think where are you even coming from? You know, if it was somebody who was an expert or had a lot of experience, you know you would probably take it a bit more to heart, I guess. But you know, everybody's a critic, aren't you critics everywhere
 
14:23 - Alexis (Host)
I mean especially with the internet. These days it's a bit easier for people to critique you. Yes, yeah, now is there an object or a thing that you can't live without when you're creating? 
 
14:43 - Anthea (Guest)
Yep, my notebook really I'm a note taker, um, I'm pretty much constantly writing notes. So I have a notebook. There's one right here next to me. This is my current one and, um, yeah, it doesn't matter what I'm doing, whether I'm um, I mean, for instance, even if I am singing, learning a song, playing piano, if it's magazine editing, if I'm writing, if I'm brainstorming, it always my hand just starts writing and I get very frustrated if I don't have a notebook with me. So, even if I go out, even if I go out for lunch now, I take a notebook. Really, yeah. 
 
15:23
Cause I think well, if somebody's late, I could doodle for 10 minutes.
 
15:28 - Alexis (Host)
Amazing.  Yeah. 
 
15:28 - Anthea (Guest)
So that's my yeah, I take a notebook everywhere and I've got. I keep them for a while in case there's anything in them I want to refer to. So I've got a notebook cupboard that's got like all my old notebooks in it and I just put masking tape on the front with the date. You know that it started and ended, yeah, and I keep them for a while and then they end up being tossed out. But yeah, 
 
15:49 - Alexis (Host)
Do you have? I know this sounds like an odd question, but do you have like a particular kind of pen that you like? 
 
16:01 - Anthea
I do! 
 
16:04 - Alexis
Yeah, because I feel like there's something about the glide on the paper clearly for you.
 
16:04 - Anthea (Guest)
Also, I usually use this like multi-colored thing oh, I love it yeah because, depending on the notes and what's in my head at the time, something might have to be in blue and something might have to be in black, so that I can quickly see that there's, you know, two aspects or whatever. So I also am a little bit color-coded. And some pages are really neat and some patents pages are just chaos, which is probably just how I was feeling on the day. 
 
16:34 - Alexis (Host)
I love this. Do you ever find writing on your like typing on your laptop or in your phone? Does that give you justice? 
 
16:44 - Anthea (Guest)
I have both or yeah, so I mean, I'm always doing everything on my laptop and I have a big screen attachment because I'm editing, so I sort of need, and I'm a bit blind these days, but I always, at the same time, have my notebook yeah. 
 
17:00 - Alexis (Host)
The notebook is your anchor. Yeah, yeah, I love that so much. If you could give one piece of advice, one nugget of advice, to another creative, what would it be? 
 
17:14 - Anthea (Guest)
um, oh look, I think it would have to be to try to stay in your own lane, regardless of what you're doing, so sort of be true to yourself, even within your creativity. Try not to, you know, get too influenced and too pulled away from what's your natural vibe, expression, brand, whatever you wanna call it. So, yeah, I think, just stay in your own lane. And that sounds really easy, but it can be difficult because we're all influenced by money and people and opportunity and this thing's flying at us everywhere. So I think it's easy to get distracted. Yeah, but I think just try to stay in your own lane, yeah. 
 
18:04 - Alexis (Host)
I love that. That's so, so poetic, so good. I'm wondering what resources would you recommend, like books or podcasts or anything that pops into mind, for someone who wants to develop their creative process. 
 
18:23 - Anthea (Guest)
I would say notion. There's a, a software package called notion and it's the best sort of visual visual organization tool, online tool that I've come across, and I've tried. You know lots of things because I'm a very visual person. So, um, as far as organizing ideas and categories of ideas and visuals, um, there's all sorts of tools that you can sort of plug into it. But, yeah, it's called notion, I think it might be notion dot, it's not dot net, but I think it might be Notion. It's not net, but it's, yeah, it might be Notionnet. Anyway, people will find it. But yeah, I use it all the time, yeah, I use it a lot just to keep things organised and put things away. In case, you know, there was a thought process that I can come back to that I might want to keep Again, visually, it's great for just organizing. You know, even as a musician it would be great as a visual artist, as a designer, as a writer. Yes, terrific tool. So that would be my tip. And it's quite cheap, it's not expensive at all. 
 
19:27 - Alexis (Host)
Well, that's helpful yeah, yeah, it's a win. Yeah, is there any like books or anything that has helped you along the way, do you think? 
 
19:39 - Anthea (Guest)
I mean recently I'm very involved in online marketing for the magazine. So you know, I mean I guess the authors that spring to mind for me, because no matter what I'm doing, I'm always trying to market it and sell it. So I mean, I love Seth Godin. I've read all of Seth Godin's books. He's like a marketing guru, very clever man, I like. I don't like the man so much, but he's. His books are good. And that's Gary Vaynerchuk, who's also very famous American marketer. Yeah, I guess they're the two authors that come to mind that I've literally read everything that they've released. 
 
20:25
Yeah and then around that. Usually my reading these days is non-fiction, because I feel like I just don't have enough time to read fiction at this stage of my life. 
 
20:35 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah. 
 
20:36 - Anthea (Guest)
Yeah, so that would my the two authors I would recommend having a look at. 
 
20:40 - Alexis (Host)
Oh love that. If you could hear any other creative come and chat with me on the podcast and answer these questions, who would it be? And why? 
 
20:50 - Anthea (Guest)
Because you're about creativity really, and, as is the magazine, I've been thinking a lot about the creatives that you don't give much mind to, and I'm quite interested in floristry in my mind at the moment and I was thinking it would be great, because of the questions you're asking me to, to find a florist, yeah, and just get their idea of space and creativity and tools and yeah. So I think somebody that's in that realm and I mean you would have to be so creative and like all other creatives that you've got so many aspects of floristry. I mean, still, the business side, the creative side, um, I think, yeah, I think they must have some good information that we could all tap into.
 
21:47 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, I love it. Oh, my goodness, thank you so much. You're welcome, Anthea Palmer, for being on through the creative door. 
 
21:51 - Anthea 
Pleasure anytime.  
 
21: 52 - Alexis 
Yay! 
 
21:57
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of Through the Creative Door. If you enjoy our episodes and find value in them, consider supporting us by making a donation. Just visit buymeacoffeecom/throughthecreativedoor or via the link in our Instagram bio where you can choose an amount and even write us a little message. Every little bit helps and we truly appreciate all of your support. But if you can't donate, no worries, you can still help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends and family and leaving a review on your favourite platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community. We'll catch you on the next episode. Bye. 

20 | Never Stop Growing with Cameron Alexander

In this episode of Through the Creative Door, Alexis sits down with Cameron Alexander, a talented singer-songwriter navigating the highs and lows of creative life. From the challenges of van life through the Australian terrain to the importance of finding a personal creative space, Cameron opens up about the delicate balance between routine and inspiration. Tune in for an insightful conversation about overcoming imposter syndrome, creating art in both good and bad moments in life and celebrating resilience, growth, and authentic creation true to you. 
 
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Cameron on instagram; @ __cameron_alexander__
 
This episode was recorded on 6 May 2024 on the lands of the Yuggera Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
 
…
Creative resources from Cameron:
I Heart Songwriters Club - https://www.iheartsongwritingclub.com/ 
 
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
 
—--------------------
 
00:09 - Alexis (Host)
Hello, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. May we pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. I’m delighted to welcome you to Through the Creative Door. 
 
Hello, how are you? 
 
00:51 - Cameron (Guest)
I'm so well, I'm so much better for seeing you on this humid Brisbane afternoon. 
 
00:57 - Alexis (Host)
Cameron Alexander. Welcome to Through the Creative Door. 
 
01:01 - Cameron (Guest)
It's so good to be here. 
 
01:03 - Alexis (Host)
Technically, I'm through your door, but that's yeah, that's you know, that's how this podcast for all. I get to come and visit
 
01:11 - Cameron (Guest) 
Strangers in places
 
01:13 - Alexis (Host)
 Stranger danger 
 
01:16 - Cameron (Guest) 
no no, no danger. 
 
01:19 - Alexis (Host) 
So let's start with a little bit about you. So you are a phenomenal artist in your own right. 
 
01:27 - Cameron (Guest)
Thank you, I appreciate that. 
 
01:28 - Alexis (Host)
You really are. You write some really catchy tunes and I think I'm enamoured, because I obviously can't play guitar, so, like I just watch what you do, I was like, oh they're just so lush so beautiful. 
 
01:45 - Cameron (Guest)
That's really. That's really nice to say,
 
01:48 - Alexis (Host) 
Oh well, it's the truth. It's the truth, but you have toured, you have recorded, you have done van life, even with your touring, which I just love absolutely froth that. 
 
02:05 - Cameron (Guest) 
Well I have to say you helped us out with that because we were going in very dark and I think Ansel, my fiancé and I we had a coffee meeting with you and you gave us a lot of very valuable tips. 
 
02:15 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, I just want everyone to go van life. I was just so excited when you were like I'm thinking about doing this. I'm like yes, yeah, yes, this I'm like yes, yeah, yes, 
 
02:25 - Cameron (Guest) 
yeah, it's hard, but it's good. It's harder than I thought. I think I rely on routine more than I realized, and I don't think I maintained routine as well as I could have 
 
2:38 - Alexis (Host) 
I would suggest it's pretty difficult to retain any kind of routine, not only just van life, but just on tour or on the road which you guys were all over the place for that yeah, so I wouldn't worry, I don't sweat small stuff. 
 
02:55 - Cameron (Guest)
What are you gonna do? 
 
02:57 - Alexis (Host)
So you have been traveling a lot. We're here in brisbane, but you're originally from Perth yes uh, you've had lots of different spaces to create, yeah, but I'm curious what does a creative space mean to you and why? 
 
03:14 - Cameron (Guest)
I sort of found on the road. I didn't write much at all really, um, lots of words maybe here and there, as far as like melody, um, and actual, you know, like putting a song together, like not much, and I'm not sure if that's just because maybe you don't have anywhere. That feels private or like for me I don't really like and I would like to do more of it, but I don't really like creating in the presence of anyone else, so much in terms of writing a song. Maybe, once you're putting something together, absolutely obviously people there. But I definitely found like, like and this was the biggest thing with with travel or whenever we've moved from one apartment to another is like if there isn't a space, that is just for that, um, it sort of doesn't happen, and I think what that means, like for us now, when we, when we moved here and moved into a place, we sort of wanted to have either a garage or a bedroom that we could set up with all the, all the other music gear in there, because I think if you have all your stuff, say, in the lounge room, oh yeah, you could play in the lounge room. It's like well, you can, but you also live with someone else and maybe there's people staying and all of those things. 
 
04:14
So for me I think um, you know, it needs to be light for me, like, and I need to feel like it's light and that sort of then comes into the garage thing, whereas I can't go and sit in like a dark sort of like a dank cellar of a garage and create, because it just doesn't really work. 
 
04:28
It's like I want to be light for me. I put a bunch of plants around, but I don't think that's essential, but I do like it and I think it just has to be instruments everywhere. So I like to have maybe two or three guitars out and a bass out and maybe there's a harmonica on the table, and I think when all those things are out, you just pick them up and play. So, even if you're not planning on creating proper, you just pick something up and play and that thing leads to another thing, and then you're like oh cool, and you either quickly grab a sound grab and you work on it later. Yeah, I guess when I lived in a bigger house, there was a guitar in every room and some of them were really crappy and some of them were really good, and sometimes you play the crappy one. 
 
05:07
You're like I actually really like how the crappy one sounds when I play this particular thing, yeah, but otherwise, like it doesn't need to be big, it just needs to have its own little separate place for me and it needs to feel private. 
 
05:19 - Alexis (Host)
Have you ever been able to get over that and write in front of or like, have the concept of a song in the presence of anyone? 
 
05:29 - Cameron (Guest)
I think I can do it lyrically, I can do words and I can do melody, but like I couldn't do instrument in front of people, I wouldn't be able to, like, write anything on guitar in front of people. I think that comes from. I feel like, guitar wise, I feel like it's something that is like the least natural of the singer-songwriter thing for me. So it's probably the thing that I feel like I need to sort of nut out of mine a little bit, work out of my own a bit and then take it to someone and could work on it then. But I need to go with like a blueprint or nuts and bolts, yeah, probably vocals and lyrics I could do on the spot, I think, pretty happily. 
 
06:05 - Alexis (Host)
It's interesting that you say that, because I do think it is a learned skill to be able to create, and I think you're always paying attention, like you know that someone's at home or someone's somewhat in earshot, even if they're not really paying attention to you. But it's funny because I started playing piano when I was a kid and an upright piano was always put in a public area of a house yeah so I sort of got used to the fact that someone would be hearing me. I never really got full privacy, yeah, and so yeah, it's almost flipped me.
 
06:36 - Cameron (Guest)
For me that's really interesting yeah. 
 
06:38 - Alexis (Host)
I can. I can start things and sort of hum things and I yeah, even when I'm in share houses. I can sort of obviously, depending on the subject matter and things like that. 
 
06:49 - Cameron (Guest)
You know, maybe you don't, it feels a bit too private but, for the most part yeah yeah, 
 
06:58 - Cameron (Guest) 
I think maybe it comes from like a feeling of almost like pseudo imposter imposter syndrome with a guitar or like I feel like I'm like does anyone realize I still don't know what I'm doing with this yet like it kind of feels like that. So, even like jamming with people, as long as I let's just have a jam I'm like I, I just don't think it's the thing that I do. I don't really enjoy it because maybe I'm just a bit on edge of my ability yeah but again singing or like writing. 
 
07:22
So let's do a writing day. I'd be like, let's do, it sounds great. So let's just jam, like play some guitars and stuff, like nah, I'll do that by myself. Sorry, which comes across as rude, but it's just. I actually just don't think I have the ability for it. I'm sorry 
 
07:34 - Alexis (Host)
Well, we know what our strengths and our weaknesses are. Yeah, we, yeah, all good. Yeah, all good, yeah. When did you start playing guitar? 
 
07:44 - Cameron (Guest)
I think I was probably like 13. Yeah, I think, and then I just was a very bad student. 
 
07:54 - Alexis (Host)
In what way? 
 
07:54 - Cameron (Guest)
In terms of like I just didn't do anything, but I want to play this. And your teacher was like great, this is how we're going to do this. This is like structure. This is that. This is that. Then you go to the lesson next week like, cool, how'd you go. And you're like, did you reckon they'll be able to figure out that I? And you're like, yeah, I was really struggling with with that C chord. Again, you're like, when you're struggling with that six months ago, you're like, yeah, it's really just come around, hasn't it? 
 
08:16 - Alexis (Host)
I do vividly remember piano teachers and they always expected you to do like certain scales and certain exercises and yeah, I don't know as kids why do you think that we all think that we can fudge it and they're, oh,
 
08:26 - Cameron (Guest)
They're not gonna know that it sounds terrible everyone can hear it. I left my guitar in my guitar teacher's room once for like a whole week, like in between lessons, and when I got back he's like how'd you go? And I was like yeah, great. And he's like how your guitar's been here for a week, he's got me there. 
 
08:51
Well played, oh man and like could you imagine now, though, like doing weekly or two sessions weekly, and how much that would would cost? And my parents were just paying for that, and I was just fudging it. No, I was. I was like, yeah, I in hindsight could use that time again perhaps but then here we are, so.
09:11 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, exactly, and you know it's all for the plot yeah.
 
09:19 - Cameron (Guest)
yeah exactly. I should tell people I didn't start till. I was like 25, I'm like wow, you're really good. Thank you. Less good for 15 years of playing. 
 
09:28 - Alexis (Host)
Well, I think you're fabulous. 
 
09:30 - Cameron (Guest)
Thank you Alexis. 
 
09:33 - Alexis (Host)
So that leads me into my next question. What if you could pick a body of work or something that you've worked on that you're most proud of creating? How do you think that came about, and like what is that project? 
 
09:52 - Cameron (Guest)
Yeah, it's a good question, Thank you. No, I think, like, honestly, there's a lot of stuff I've written lately, like since we've been here and you don't have the social community, like your social community, your friends and family like there's a lot of time to do the stuff that otherwise, you know, extracurricular activity takes out, of which for me is music and writing. There's heaps of stuff. I've got on all the electrics. I've sort of gone away from acoustic for the time being with a lot of things and I'm like spending hours and hours on that and really trying to finesse and get the sound out. So I think I'm going to be really proud of that once it's out. 
 
10:32
But I think the more obvious answer is probably the my first EP and at the moment, my only EP that's out, because that was such a response to my own like I didn't really start writing music, so I was probably 23 or 24, even like at all, and that whole EP was kind of a response, I think, to like probably about six or seven year period where I struggled a lot with anxiety and depression, which I think we hear come up a lot when you listen to, like a creative's podcast or interview, like, I think, mental health stuff and looking for either an expression of that or an escape from that probably comes up in art quite a lot. But like, listening to those the five songs on that, like they're all kind of about that, I mean I didn't really realise writing at the time. And then when you're talking to people about it afterwards or listening to it, um, you so realize you're almost, like you know, writing a letter to yourself. In a lot of ways, um, and I guess, like it's it's called Ruminations because I felt like I just had this huge period of time in my life, like really formative years, where, like was just so stuck in thinking all the time, um, and thinking mostly negative things all the time and being really worried about what everyone else thinks about you, and just like so caught up in that really vicious cycle. 
 
11:42
And so, like you know, it's called Ruminations, because I spend a lot of time ruminating on things, you know, for no real practical or positive gain, I guess, which, like I'm really glad I had that period now and I sort of uh felt like I haven't been there for, uh, probably six years, um, like at all, which has been fantastic um, but I feel like through that period I've, you know, become like I feel like I'm a very empathetic and sympathetic person and um, and have a lot of time, or try to have a lot of time for people that are also, you know, not feeling great or picking up when someone's not feeling great, because I feel like I really understand what that is like, and so I'm proud that that body of work is kind of about that. 
 
12:27 - Alexis (Host)
It's a beautiful record. 
 
12:28 - Cameron (Guest)
Yeah, thank you, I appreciate it. But yeah, I feel like I've been able to step, take another step away from just writing about your own thoughts, feelings and emotions, and I think it was like really almost like for me, like cathartic in a way, to do that again, like not intentionally, and now it's like it's done, like off your chest. I'm sure it's not done done, but it kind of feels like a full stop on a sentence there for me. 
 
12:53 - Alexis (Host)
I can relate to that. I have, yeah, bodies of work, that that was a time and a place and I wouldn't change it or rearrange it, but that, exactly what you said that door, all that full stop, that door's closed. And now you can like be like okay, what's next? 
 
13:11 - Cameron (Guest)
Yeah, yeah absolutely that's it. It's like it's there, it’s great, it’s done. Hopefully, at least that is.  
 
13:14 - Alexis (Host)
On the flip side of something that you're proud of, has there been a challenge, or like something that's like a time in your life that's challenged your creativity? 
 
13:31 - Cameron (Guest)
Yeah, for the last maybe eight months or maybe 12 months, I feel like I've just written so much so I sort of forgot. There was actually like like I wrote, wrote all those songs on the EP and a bunch of my singles, and then it could be like a song every six months or like like sometimes I feel like I wrote a song for a year. I was like man, I feel like now that I've gotten rid of a lot of these emotions that were making, that were really fueling a lot of my music, and also, you know, I'm in a super happy, like loving relationship, whereas, you know, maybe when you're going through a breakup or something, you know that gives you a lot of fuel to write about stuff because your emotions are right at the surface. So I think, like, as I found myself in a way more comfortable place in life and a like way more happy place in life and like way more happy place, I was like I don't have anything to write about, um, and you still do write some stuff, but it didn't really feel very, uh, genuine. I feel a little bit disingenuous because you're like well, it's not really. It's not really where I'm at, um, which is okay to write like that of course, it's where I like it now, um. 
 
But yeah, I think, like one of the things I learned there was also, I was like I have like you also, I want to write in alternate tunings. I want to play this sort of folky music or this sort of alternative kind of stuff, because that's what I listen to and that's what I like. So I'm not going to do anything in standard tunings, I'm not going to do anything that follows basic song structure or just well-known song structure, and so that was probably a real halt on things, because you're like oh, I've already used that shape, I've already used this pattern and this kind of just sounds like that. So I did and I signed up for it and one of it, one of our mutual friends, Ruby shout out, Ruby, she had suggested to me before the iHeart Songwriters Club. It's like online, they put you together with a you know a little online chat group, basically, and you do a song all the time, uh, like one a week for 10 weeks or something like that, um, and you might get a lot done. You might not get much done, uh, but through that I was like, just for time's sake, I'll start playing a bit more in standard um, and you know okay, like I'm sort of have hit a bit of a block here, so I was like I don't understand music theory, but I can understand enough to get my head around like a basic song structure so I can go. Okay, I'm gonna, I know I like to. 
 
15:36
I write a lot in the key of c. I think a lot, of, a lot of people do. Uh, so, okay, what are the chords in c? Okay, cool, these go, and then you sort of put it together, you know okay, and then you do another deep dive, like I'm literally like rope learning this stuff. 
 
15:46
So I'm like looking at youtube videos and like wikipedia on on how to write a song in this thing and so like approaching in a way that was like I'm just going to do it differently to how I normally do it and um, and you know, a couple songs come out of that and I'm like actually I love these little effectively like little four chord bangers in standard tuning, um, and from that I've then gone back into and now I feel like I'm writing a lot, you know electric, alternate, electric, standard, like acoustic, and like it just feels like at the moment. Um, yeah, I feel like I'm writing a lot and I think a lot of that was just by trying to break out of doing exactly what I do. Do something different and everything is everything's a lot more clear and like so much better for it, I guess it's like another tool. 
 
16:27 - Alexis (Host)
I do think we need to judge things up sometimes, like push us out of our comfort zone, like because we do get into a bit of a formula which there's nothing wrong with the formula, but it's good to challenge ourselves and sometimes we need to put ourselves in situations where you're doing the songwriting, you know class, or like something else to others around you to sort of push you a little bit. 
 
16:54 - Cameron (Guest)
Yep. And also, like you have that pressure of like, well, you need to have something next week, so figure something out. It's not quite done, but you know you might have something that you might not ever use that song again. It might've been a shape in there that you really liked chord wise or a verse in there that you really liked. You then take that verse and I think there's something I could do here. That I think there's something I could do here. That verse becomes a chorus, that becomes a song. And it was all because you had you know an hour to just bust out something that you know resembles a song as quickly as you could. So I think, yeah, just looking to do something different, rather than for me, I probably just sat there a lot trying to play something like God, I've got nothing. Like I've really got nothing here. I'm like I'm trying all this stuff, it's just nothing. And, yeah, force the hand a little bit. 
 
17:35 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, now is there any object or thing that you can't live without when you're creating? 
 
17:42 - Cameron (Guest)
The. The obvious one would have, like it has to be this very specific guitar. It's like my first um Maten, which is just recently been retired from gigs because, um, it doesn't quite sound like what it used to, despite a lot of work. So I think I've had that since I was maybe, oh, no 14. Um, it's like beautiful, absolutely love it. Just an old, like pretty, just run the mill, sort of mid range Maten, but like I just love writing on that um, and I've got some other like much better guitars, um, and I just don't really write on them. Um, but when I'm specifically sitting down to put a song together, if I feel like something's coming, coming around, I'm like, oh, there's like an earworm, you know, when you feel you feel you're like, oh, I think love, and I'm feeling very creative and so you go and um, it's pen and paper. 
 
18:30
So I find like I do have a phone full of notes and voice memos and all the rest, but like, as far as you know, maybe I've got something 40 percent done, if I sit down with pen and paper I can probably get it very close to being, you know, majority done, versus if I'm typing in my phone. I don't know why it just um that one's quite essential for me. 
 
18:49 - Alexis (Host)
I'd agree with that. I'd agree with that. If you could give one piece of advice, one nugget of gold to another creative what would it be? 
 
19:06 - Cameron (Guest)
This one's such a cliche but truly like writing something that you actually enjoy and or like or painting something, or you know you can do. You can do so many things well, but if you don't like it, it either gets really old really quickly or like you just don't enjoy doing it. So, like you know, say, maybe cover gigs and stuff like that for me is something that like I actually just really don't like doing it. Um, I just find it quite boring.
 
19:28 - Alexis (Host)
Look, I've done my fair share and I'll be honest, Yeah, yeah, and I really struggle 
 
19:34 - Cameron (Guest)
I love that other people do it and I love playing some covers here and there. Sure, I just really like writing and creating and I feel like playing someone else's stuff um, just doesn't do it for me quite as much. So I think, like really like, do do what you like and you're probably good at it, and I think always, always just look to get better. It was really like you're not gonna be as good today as you are tomorrow and you're gonna be much better next year than this year. And I think like that's such a big thing with art is how rapidly something can improve, at least to everyone else. 
 
20:12
You know, I remember like two years ago you weren't quite this good and so well, I have done it for three hours a day for the last two years. So I would hope I'm a bit, but like, truly like the amount of work that goes into it feels like so much and it is a lot. But the relative time frame I don't think is, you know, you know in in your life or all the rest of it, like it's actually not so much. So I think always be accepting of feedback and trying to grow. 
 
20:34 - Alexis (Host)
Well said. Well said, I mean, we just mentioned that IHeart Songwriting. 
 
20:44 - Cameron (Guest)
Yes, iheart Songwriters Club I believe. 
 
20:45 - Alexis (Host)
iHeart Songwriters Club. Additional to that, as like a resource or something that you've been able to utilize, would you recommend anything else if someone sort of wanted to do what you do, um, or if they wanted to develop their creative process? 
 
21:06 - Cameron (Guest)
Yeah, I actually I feel like I try and do these things so I can speak for, like, what I've tried and what's worked, like. So, um, trying something different, like really, like truly. Um, I wanted to play everything alternate tune because that makes me super alternative and cool. Uh, so I'm never going to do anything in standard and I start writing in standard a little bit and I'm like this is so much fun. I love these little, these little bops, and like the audience loves them. 
 
21:31
So so, trying something completely different and that might be if you're someone that's always like a really structured, you know we're going to go verse, verse, chorus, um, verse, bridge, chorus, chorus, chorus. Like try and do it completely different. Um, and try, yeah, just just look at anything that's different to what you're doing and see if you can find something in that. It's not a specific resource, but I think like it's also really achievable, like you don't have to pay anything to listen to a Leonard Cohen album on spotify and it's probably really different to anything you're doing, because it's quite strange, um and and yeah, I think, find what motivates you. 
 
22:10
So when I go and see a show, I like to be close to where the guitar pedals are, so I'm like what's this guy doing? there and everything. And then that makes me think, okay, well, now I'm going to go try, I'm going to try some of those things. I saw they were doing that and like. So you're just always like tinkering and and trying new things and different things to what you do, I think. 
 
22:29 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, amazing. Yeah, I do that. I like obsess over, like depending on what people are doing at the shows 
 
22:30 - Cameron (Guest)
Yeah, it's funny, it's like you enjoy it, but sometimes it's like you can't enjoy it because you're um, it's like you're learning. but in a good way, in a great way, 
 
22:41 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, I've had this, but yeah but I've had this conversation with someone before about how like I thoroughly immerse myself and enjoy going to live music. But there is I'm, I'm I don't want to say critiquing, cause that sounds bad, but there's definitely an element of like Hmm, yep, they're tight and they're doing this or what they're doing over there. 
 
23:02
Oh, I like that intro. Oh, I like what they did with the backing vocals there. 
 
23:14 - Cameron (Guest)
Do you hear that? Like that seg seg, like how they just went from there to there. That was unreal. Like, um, I think they're using backing tracks here. Yeah, does that sound like a backing track to you? Like it's so funny. Um, that's what Ansel and I always find right. How did it go? I thought it was really interesting that they changed from like that guitar to that one. Just like what? Like, just watch the music, mate. 
 
23:25 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, it's so true, I'm exactly the same. One last question yes, if you could hear any other creative, come on this podcast and chat with me and answer these questions, who would it be and why? 
 
23:40 - Cameron (Guest)
There are some great ones, but the list could be like 40 people long um hit me with some, with some. Do you know Idan Shmoné Have you had him on? 
Oh, he's incredible. So he's Israeli multi-instrumentalist. You probably would have seen his videos around, but saxophone is a big one for him. He's an incredible singer, incredible songwriter, currently touring with a band, but has toured with a full loop set up where he'll loop ten different instruments and he's an incredible story. Him and I have had a few beers around a fire and I just listened to him talk for four hours and it's just amazing. He's so funny. But yeah, he's come from Israel, moved to Fremantle, just all this stuff is wild. He'd be a great one because he is a story. 
 
24:27
Sunday Lemonade those guys are great because they've just been grinding so hard. I think, um, their story for what I've seen and what I've spoke to them about is like they're always just doing it, that more old school, that old school music way, where you just like tour and tour and grow an audience and they do it so well I think, that's super admirable, because I definitely burnt out a little bit with it after a year and a bit, so so I don't know how they manage it. 
 
24:55
Um, and then gosh all the people in Perth we know, yeah there's just so many there's honestly, I really do feel so inspired by so many people and when you go see them you're like it's just so good when you see everyone else doing so well and you're like I remember when we played this and we did that and, like you, all sort of know each other, it's like it's um, yeah, it's gorgeous, I think yeah. 
 
25:16 - Alexis (Host)
Beautiful. Cameron Alexander, thank you so much for being on the podcast. It's been so beautiful having you through the creative door oh. 
 
25:26 - Cameron (Guest)
Thank you for letting me in. You know I've been knocking for some time, yeah. 
 
25:36 - Alexis (Host)
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of Through the Creative Door. If you enjoy our episodes and find value in them, consider supporting us by making a donation. Just visit buymeacoffeecom/throughthecreativedoor or via the link in our Instagram bio where you can choose an amount and even write us a little message. Every little bit helps and we truly appreciate all of your support. But if you can't donate, no worries, you can still help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends and family and leaving a review on your favourite platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community. We'll catch you on the next episode. Bye. 
 

19 | Give Yourself Permission To Try and Fail with Maja Puseljic

In this episode of Through the Creative Door, Alexis sits down with the multi-talented poet, singer-songwriter, writer & author of ‘The Realest Bitch Out’ and ‘Coming Home To Yourself’ and all round creative spirit, Maja Puseljic. They dive deep into the essence of creativity, exploring the power of freedom in artistic expression and the courage it takes to confront life's challenges through art. Maja shares her journey of turning life's trials into poetry and music, revealing that creativity is born from the raw, unfiltered experiences of everyday life. Whether you're struggling to find your voice or looking for inspiration to push your creative boundaries, this episode will encourage you to embrace the messiness of the process, trust your intuition, and never shy away from asking for help when you need it. 
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Maja on instagram; @ majaofficialmusic
 
This episode was recorded on 5 May 2024 on the lands of the Gubbi Gubbi Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
 
…
Creative resources from Maja:
> BOOK: Jab, Jab, Jab, Right Hook: How to Tell Your Story in a Noisy Social World by Gary Vaynerchuk
> BOOK: Music Business: A Musician’s Guide to the AUstralian Music Industry by Top Australian Lawyers and Deal Makers by Jules Munro and Shane Simpson
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
 
__________________________________
 
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hello, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. May we pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. I’m delighted to welcome you to Through the Creative Door. 
Hello, Maja, how are you?
 
00:51 - Maja (Guest)
 I'm good
 
00:52 - Alexis (Host)
I am so chuffed. Welcome to Through the Creative Door. Well, you've let me actually through your creative door. 
 
00:59 - Maja (Guest)
I have literally, 
 
00:56 - Alexis (Host)
Oh my goodness, thank you so much. 
 
00:58 - Maja (Guest) 
Thanks for coming
 
01:01 - Alexis (Host)
Let's just have a little chat about. Well, first off, let's go through. You are such a talented bear, oh, oh, my goodness. Uh, I'm in absolute awe of you. You are a phenomenal poet who has written multiple books. You are a phenomenal singer-songwriter who also plays multiple instruments. Oh my God, and you like teach. And I mean, you've got many strings to your bow as a creative. Have I missed anything? 
 
01:39 - Maja (Guest)
I'm into astrology, tarot and kinesiology right now is what I'm studying. So I'm doing a bit of of like um non-western therapy, and then the music obviously, but I think they're all kind of creative artforms. 
 
01:52 - Alexis (Host)
I think so too. I think it's that um notion of like curiosity and like wanting to learn and like picking things up. 
 
01:59 - Maja (Guest)
It's very intuitive yeah, super intuitive, mediums, yeah, yeah. 
 
02:03 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, love it. Now. I know I'm in your creative space at the moment, but I'm curious what does a creative space mean to you and why? 
 
02:14 - Maja (Guest)
Okay, I did look at this question before. I did try to prepare for it. 
So I will say, well, the first line I wrote was freedom. Yeah, so feeling free is the only way to be creative for me, like and not holding back. I think with my poetry I try not to hold back. I say everything I think and they can be confronting for people sometimes and it can be considered too much, but it's also like I think the gold in when you're creating is to not hold back too much. But it's also like I think the gold in when you're creating is to not hold back and to not be afraid to offend or push those boundaries or like you know you got to work with. 
 
02:51
But for me, like, the biggest creativity and like creative inspiration is life. Just like being in the world, like when I'm like okay, I was telling you before like I spent seven or eight hours in the hospital and I wrote a poem just based off all the surroundings that were happening, you know, and the times of the day, like 4am, 5am, 6, like you know, I kind of. So you know, anything can be creative if you want it to be. Like you can make creativity out of just a bad situation, and that's what I love about creating is like trying to turn these bad situations into something special or like something that people can relate to. And I find with my music and my poetry I hope that people think it's like like relevant or funny, but it's like, you know, trying to make fun of life in a certain way, or like you know, those were kind of my favorite people when I was a child, like watching, you know, actors. My mum would take me to the theatre and I would watch like actors perform and I would be like, oh my god, this is so amazing. And I kind of see myself that way, where it's like when I'm performing I'm kind of like an actor, I become the part of my life, like the story that is my life. 
 
04:01
But anyway, to answer the question, really it's about just like the freedom to be able to express and say those things. And I think if you have a filter or you have a block throat chakra or you can't, you don't feel like the audience is feeling you or you don't feel heard in some way. That's like the hardest thing. But when you're in your own creative space or in those spaces where you feel safe, that's when that creativity can like blossom. But for me that could be anywhere. It's just like nice to have the actual room to come back to you know. 
 
04:34 - Alexis (Host) 
Yeah, but it's not a quintessential necessity. 
 
04:37 - Maja (Guest)
I don't need to go to like one space to be able to create. It's just like it's nice to have it, you know yeah, yeah.  
 
04:46 - Alexis (Host)
oh, I love it yeah. I mean, this is an interesting question, considering that you have so many ventures. Okay, is there one body of work or one thing that you've created that you're most proud of today? 
 
05:02 - Maja (Guest)
I actually brought the things because I thought might might as well show you my first album. I'll get there. So I've done two EPs and this is the album. I've got another album that's coming, but not maybe in the next two years. But yeah, it was very special because I wrote it based off a book of poetry. I wrote this in Melbourne. It was like when I moved to Melbourne I was like I want to write poetry. Like I literally manifested it. I wrote 2015, I will be living in Melbourne writing my own poetry. 
 
05:32
It's like I think we have like a very filtered world now. We're not allowed to speak or say what we think, and everyone's entitled to their opinion, and I think this was just for me to really say this was my opinion, this is what I think. You know, not everyone has to agree with my opinions, but it was just for me to really say this was my opinion, this is what I think. You know, not everyone has to agree with my opinions, but it was just for me to be able to say them and I feel like it freed me, you know, like it freed me to be fully who I am, you know to write this book and I still have, you know, sometimes fear around it because it's like, oh, what will people think? Like I, still the Gemini in there is still, like you know, questioning. 
 
06:02
But like I wrote it to free myself, really to free myself from, like all the self-imposed restrictions that I felt like society had put onto me and I have to be in this box or I have to be in that box, kind of what we were talking about like just to just to be, like, well, actually I don't have to be, and maybe I fit into this box a bit, and this one a little bit as well, but that's okay, you know. And I, when I wrote the um, the blurb, I wrote like this is for the people who are somewhere in the middle ground and for the loners, like I was really writing for people who felt alone and who didn't feel like they quite fit in, you know, one way or the other way, and they were just a bit more, you know. Yeah, but anyway, that's what I'm proud of right now. 
 
06:47 - Alexis (Host)
I love this. Thank you so much for sharing. On the total opposite side, speaking of juxtapositions, yes, has there been something that a situation or a circumstance or I don't know something, that has challenged your creativity? And yeah, how did you maneuver through over around it? 
 
07:13 - Maja (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, I was thinking about this as well. One I had a very specific instance. I don't know if you want me to tell you the very specific instance, but writing my song Woman I've Become, which was became quite a hit for my career. I would say all my female friends that love it know it. It's like a very strong, like female empowerment song and it's just like. But there was a bit in the song where I was struggling with the producer because we couldn't quite get it to flow like it. We got in certain sections but the middle section was really missing, like just something. It was just, it didn't feel right and I was so stressed. I remember I was dating this guy at the time and he was like no, it needs to be a bit more like you know like just he like drummed it out for me and I was like, yeah, you're right. 
 
08:02
And then my friend came in Jacob, if you're listening. He came in and he has a bit of a producer brain as well. And he just came in and literally what fixed the problem was a tambourine. It was just like, and then it just like it crescendoed when it got to the drums it felt right, it was like missing this huge percussion bit. And after that challenge, in the next time I went into the studio it was like important for me to um tell the next producer like I need the percussion to work and to feel right, you know. So it did like it like he was quite all over the percussion stuff, so I didn't have to worry about that so much. So I mean, that was just like a very specific instance of like where something was quite challenging and like we overcame it, um, with the tambourine. 
 
08:55 - Alexis (Guest) 
In that time of the challenge of like, obviously feeling like you're hitting that brick wall, yes, like, what kind of energy? like what was that like for you in that space? Like how were you manoeuvring through that with obviously you're working with your producer. Yeah, how did you manage that? 
 
09:13 - Maja (Guest)
I don't know, I just said we need to bring Jacob in, like we need a third party, like because we were not getting anywhere, so we needed like a mediator, almost. And he was good, because I like getting him in, because he has like a completely different. It's like he just brings in something new that I wouldn't think of, you know. So he just came in and he just thought of the tambourine bit and it just like solved my issue, you know. So that was really nice, like just getting that happening, you know. So, yeah, I didn't at the time I just felt lost and confused and unhappy, but, yeah, until I thought, well, we need someone else, like another perspective. So that's what fixed it, like another perspective, really. 
 
09:55 - Alexis (Host)
I think it doesn't matter what part of our you know journey, we so need to be able to have the ability to lean on our community. True, you know, there are times where, yeah, you just feel a bit like overwhelmed. 
 
10:10 - Maja (Guest)
Yeah, as much as I want to be an independent woman that can do it all myself. Like, I know my limits of like. When I need help, I'm not afraid to ask, and I think that's something that what you're trying to say limits of like. When I need help, I'm not afraid to ask, and I think that's something that what you're trying to say is like, when you need help, it's okay to ask, it's okay to receive, and I think a lot of people, and women especially we, can struggle to receive that help. So it's like allowing yourself to receive. You know, yeah, okay, it's okay, let them help. 
 
10:37 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah. Do you have any objects or things that you can't live without when you're creating? 
 
10:46 - Maja (Guest)
Yes, I saw that question. Um, I don't know, the only thing I could think of was like my phone. 
 
10:56 - Alexis (Host)
I mean, it is an object, it is a thing. Yes, I'm curious why? 
 
10:59 - Maja (Guest)
uh, because I write all my, my thoughts and my feelings in the phone, like any kind of one-liners that I have, you know, any thoughts that I just like sudden, you know, like anything I think is good, or it all goes in my phone and that's where it begins like a song, even if I have lyrics, I'll write it in the phone. Um, and the guitar also, if it's, if I'm doing musical stuff. The guitar I guess is an object, but mainly the phone. I can record stuff on the phone too. It's just mainly but the note keeping and keeping all my stuff together. It's like just one place. 
 
11:32 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, yeah, please tell me you back it up.
 
11:38 - Maja (Guest)
uh, no, the last, you should have seen the last, um, the last phone I had. I literally dropped it into the ocean and then I actually had 24 hours to save some of the poetry and I still refuse to, because I was like, no, I'm letting go, no, I'm like god, I wish I had that poetry. Not even the photos I lost like 30,000 photos, but it was more the poetry that I wanted back. 
 
11:59 - Alexis (Host)
For those listening. If you take anything from this podcast, back up your data. 
 
12:07 - Maja (Guest)
Well, I've backed everything up onto the cloud now, my website guys forced me. 
 
12:14 - Alexis (Host)
Thank God, someone in your community is telling you to back up things. Yeah. Your stressing me out here. 
 
12:17 - Maja (Guest)
Yeah, he's got some Virgo in his chart, so he was is telling you to back up things.
 
12:19 - Alexis (Host)
If you could give one piece of advice, one nugget of gold to another, creative yeah, what would it be? 
 
12:34 - Maja (Guest)
uh, just keep going. That's my advice. Don't give up, just start. You know, like when I first started I did not know how to make an EP. I remember like I didn't even know how to get a gig. I went to an open mic and someone yelled out you're not in tune. And then like that was rough, but then like I just kept going, like I I did like gigs at Grill’d for no money, just to be heard like. And then I I just got better at like trying to book gigs and like I got better at okay, how am I going to make an EP? 
 
13:05
One of my friends was we did composition at uni together, my first EP. We literally recorded it in his bedroom and like we took some of the equipment and recorded piano and it wasn't perfect. I'm like it's somewhere in the box, um, and you know it was like I spent about $800 for print run of 500 CDs that were just like. You know, you slotted in the disc and I got a graphic. I didn't know, I just did the things, I just tried to do the things. 
 
13:34
And then, and even with the book, I was like, how do I do I write a book? I mean, my kinesiologist helped me a lot with that and she was like you know, get a. You know, I got the graphic designer and then it became like you know, I found a print company that I still go with. These books were both printed in the same company like, and you know, I just I just made it happen and I just kept going and I think a lot of people give up or they quit or they're like afraid or because they don't know. You know it might not be good enough, but it's like the only way you're going to be good enough is if you give yourself the permission to try and fail you know,
 
14:09 - Alexis (Host)
oh, isn't that a gold nugget? 
 
14:14 - Maja (Guest) 
and yeah, that's my advice yeah, 
 
14:16 - Alexis (Host) 
ah, it is so true, though I think we can get too bogged down in perfectionism. And yeah almost ends up being a noose if we're not careful. 
 
14:29 - Maja (Guest)
Yeah, and we don't talk, I don't know if we do talk about it, but I think a lot of artists are perfectionists. We like things because there's an aspect to wanting to control your art and make it. You know that masterpiece or perfect and any kind of creative person you look back and see their history, you'll see that they have some level of like OCD with their art, you know 
 
14:49 - Alexis (Host) 
Well, we're curating what actually is that final product that goes out exactly you know, 
 
14:54 - Maja (Guest) 
And you want your final product to represent you and you want it to be good and and I think people that sometimes, when you're working with certain people that don't understand that it's because they're not invested in it as much as you. 
 
15:03
But it's like your baby, you know, it's your life, so you don't want your baby to be misrepresented. You want it to be the most authentic version of you, you know, and you want to find people that can support, that are on board with that vision. And it's hard because, again, I want everyone to be in my tribe, but you want to have the people that are like you know, your people that are in the tribe. 
 
15:25
Yeah, and it's like and and people you know. And that's the best part about art. You know you're allowed to listen to fuckng punk rock or metal and you're allowed to listen to like pop or whatever you want. You know it doesn't have to be, and that's why we have all these avenues and one of the good things about capitalism you can just pick and choose what you want. You know, like you're not restricted to to like one thing, so it's like just yeah, like, let your. There's an outlet for whoever like you want to be, you know, and a market and a niche. That was one nice thing I liked about living in Melbourne. You know, you'll find your people. 
 
16:03 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah. You definitely have the population to support it. 
 
16:06 - Maja (Guest)
Yes, exactly. 
 
16:13 - Alexis (Host)
Now this might be a tough one because you're coming at it from a poetry side, or I mean, maybe you can give me a list for poetry and like writing, like creative writing versus music, yes, but have you got any advice? If someone wants to do what you do, is there any resources like podcasts or books or…
16:41 - Maja (Guest)
I was trying to think about this because I thought this is a very practical question. It's very you. I appreciated it, but, um, I mean the answer that I wrote down when I was thinking about it was just like, try to find the people that inspire you the most and see what they did. That's my advice is, like, you know, I love, I looked at Bon Iver and I love Kanye and I look at the way that they do things very different. You know like, Bon Iver became famous by having a heartbreak and like, just like, writing in the cabin, yeah, Kanye went to Jay-Z's studio and was like I'm amazing, you want to fuckng hear me, you know, and he kept going and kept persisting until they heard him, you know. So it's like those are two completely different approaches. Right, one, just hap, again, it was destined, you know. And then the other one was sort of destined too, but he, you know, he made it happen in another way. So it's like, but I love both of them and I like how contrasting they are and it's just like, but like the stories inspire me of the people, also for me as a poet. 
 
17:43
I watch a lot of comedians, I care about banter, so I what I like to watch how other people do things and how they deliver their jokes. I'm constantly watching people deliver jokes like like how are they presenting themselves? You know, and I guess it's like you know, if you want to be the best guitarist or whatever, go watch all the guitarists that inspire you and find what you resonate with you know. Or if you want to be a good poet, go watch. You know, for me, read a bunch of books about like that that you like, that resonate with you, because, like I know, I love Sylvia Plath and I'm like these artists and I like certain people, but that's me and that kind of shapes my style, you know. 
 
18:24
But, like, I guess the inspirational stories is what I really look for. So it's like you got to find your inspirational stories that other people do, and then you become the inspirational story. Amen, sister, yeah but actually I'll just say one more thing that did help me, one of the books that I read Gary Vaynerchuck. Do you know, Gary? 
 
18:47 - Alexis (Host)
I do not Tell us more yeah. 
 
18:49 - Maja (Guest)
He's like a. He wrote a marketing book called Jab Jab Right Hook and it was just about social media marketing, like how to make posts on insta and facebook and twitter, and that helped me a lot, just like with my not in an artistic way, but in like my career way. Music business. Yes, exactly, and the music business book is pretty good too yes by Shane Simpson and Jules Monroe. 
 
19:15
Yeah, I actually need to go through that properly. But yeah, it's got some good advice and yeah. But I mean I like to read also, just like you know, just other type, like you know spiritual books as well and stuff, and doesn't have to be um music per se. But writing has helped me a lot and reading yeah yeah, 
 
19:36 - Alexis (Host)
I was just about to say. I would suggest that your poetry as as an author, like yeah, I read a lot. 
 
19:42 - Maja (Guest)
I read a lot. I read a lot of classics. Yeah, like you know, Picture of Dorian Gray, Catcher in the Rye, Anna Karenina. Like you know, old school Tolstoy, like, just like the, the classics were really important for me as a writer because I learned how to write from that. It, like, was a good basis of being a better writer. So, yeah, love that. You know, that's my advice go find the people that you like, guys, and then let them mold, you know, help you.. 
 
20:18 - Alexis (Host)
Feed the brain. One last question Yep, If you could hear another creative come onto this podcast and answer for me to interview and answer these questions, who would it be, and why? 
 
20:29 - Maja (Guest)
Probably my best friend, Kate. Okay, kate Lusetta. She's just a really good songwriter and I feel like she'd have some good answers for you interesting. 
 
20:42 - Alexis (Host)
All right, I'll have to uh look her up and uh send you her details yeah, please do, yeah, please. 
20:57 - Maja (Guest) 
She's in Mcleod so oh, she's down in Melbourne 
 
20:59 - Alexis 
Amazing, she's close uh, thank you so much for coming through the Creative Door This has been such a joy. Absolutely fills my cup.
 
21:01 - Maja (Guest)
Yeah, me too. I'm glad you're in my space. I really appreciate it. Thanks for coming. 
 
21:10 - Alexis (Host)
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of Through the Creative Door. If you enjoy our episodes and find value in them, consider supporting us by making a donation. Just visit buymeacoffeecom/throughthecreativedoor or via the link in our Instagram bio where you can choose an amount and even write us a little message. Every little bit helps and we truly appreciate all of your support. But if you can't donate, no worries, you can still help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends and family and leaving a review on your favourite platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community. We'll catch you on the next episode. Bye. 

18 | Music Is My Lifeline with Rae Leigh

Join us in this inspiring episode of Through the Creative Door, where host Alexis Naylor sits down with Rae Leigh—a talented country singer-songwriter, actor, creator, mother and host of the Songwriter Trysts podcast. Rae shares her deeply personal journey, from overcoming the trauma of childhood abuse to finding solace and purpose in music. She opens up about the power of creative spaces, the importance of being prepared, and the courage to step into fear and pursue your dreams. This conversation is a heartfelt reminder that creativity can be a lifeline and a source of healing. 
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Rae Leigh on instagram; @ raeleighaus @ songwritertrysts
 
This episode was recorded on 2 May 2024 on the lands of the Bundjalung Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
 
…
Creative resources from Rae Leigh:
> Podcast: Songwriter Trysts
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
—-----------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hello, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. May we pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. I’m delighted to welcome you to Through the Creative Door. 
Hello, Rayleigh, I am so chuffed to be here. Welcome to Through the Creative Door. 
 
00:55 - Rae Leight (Guest)
Thanks for having me 
 
00:56 - Alexis (Host)
We go way back. We've known each other and we grew up in country Victoria together. We went to the same school. we went to the same church. 
 
01:05 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
You were like confident and creative and I was like shy and very nerdy. 
 
01:11 - Alexis (Host)
I mean, it's the yeah
 
01:13 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
 I was the nerd. That's okay. I own it now I've come to terms with it. I was a nerd. We can't all be pretty and amazing. 
 
01:21 - Alexis (Host)
Oh stop it, right back at you sister. So let's start with a little bit about you. You oh, my goodness, what a rap sheet that you have. You are such a phenomenal country singer-songwriter, very talented, you act which I'm keen to know more about. How that's even come about? But one thing that I'm, just from afar, so proud of you for creating is being the creator and host of the Songwriter Trysts. It's a podcast which you have got on your T-shirt. We've got in the background. 
 
02:04 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
This is for the retreat. This is specifically 2024 retreat, which we're about to experience. 
 
02:09 - Alexis (Host)
I'm curious, especially because you do lots of different creative ventures what does a creative space mean to you and why do you think. 
 
02:21 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
A creative space to me means I have the complete freedom and the space, and that means a little bit of financial security you know, I think you need to have your basic needs as a human kind of met to allow yourself to be creative. 
 
02:37
Financial security, food roof all that stuff helps you to be able to create away from desperation, um, so you need hope. I guess if you don't have hope that you have the ability to overcome, or overcome whatever challenge that you want to create, to solve whatever um, then you won't and you'll feel defeated and you'll feel trapped and then that's a really bad mental health space to be in. So, yeah, that's probably, I don't know, is that what you meant? 
 
03:07 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, well, I mean it's interesting over the course of the interviews that I've done so far. Like some people, a creative space is a physical and in you know,
 
03:18
I was talking about mental space. 
 
03:20
Well, that's what I mean, but everyone's different, and I think you know, for some people if the mental space is not's what I mean, but everyone's different and I think, okay, you know, for some people, if the mental space is not there, then it doesn't matter whether you're in a beautiful fancy studio or you're in a hotel room. If you're not headspace, you're not in the headspace. What is something that you're proud of creating? 
 
03:43 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
I've got a new EP coming out, so I'm really proud of that more proud than. I've ever been of any of my music, which is really cool. I think that's a normal creative thing, though so we're always most proud of the last thing we just did. 
 
00:53 - Alexis (Host)
The thing that’s at the forefront 
 
03:58 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
Most proud of the last thing we just did. I'm proud of the times that I've stepped into my fear and I've not let my fear stop me from doing something, just said yes to so many different things that I previously wouldn't have said yes to because I was scared. I didn't. I mean I wouldn't. I didn't even sing in public until 2019, outside of church and, I think, at school once. I have songs that I like more, so there's a song called All of Me. I have songs that I like more, so there's a song called All of Me, and I find it really hard to even say that I wrote this song, because I didn't technically, I just sang it. 
 
04:32
I was testing out my recording, my new recording equipment. I pressed record and I just played and I went into my flow and I played this song and I finished. I was like, oh, that's kind of cool, I'll just chuck it up on Facebook. I did that exactly as it was, and then someone took that off Facebook, got a backing track created, got me into a closet and recorded the vocals, got it mastered overseas and gave it to me as it was, that is so special. 
 
05:02
Sitting in the car and listening to this fully mastered version of this song, that kind of I didn't write, I sang, like I kind of, you know, I wrote it and I still don't even know what it meant, but it felt so good and I was listening to it in the car and I was like I didn't know that my voice could sound like that. Whatever this person did, I didn't know that I could create something that sounded so professional. 
 
05:28 - Alexis (Host)
I guess that sort of leads me into my next question, which is has there been something in particular that's challenged your personal creativity, and what was the major lesson, do you think? 
 
05:42 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
I mean, I entered into the creative industries in my 30s, which we've talked about ageism and as being a woman. That's like insane, which which is also stupid, like that's. That is not a belief and I'm not going to preach that. Um, I disagree with that. I was being very sarcastic with that but, um, when I was younger, I so I had a an abusive sexual relationship with an uncle who was in my family. He was like my mum's foster brother, and so I was sexually abused from around the age of three or four is when it started and it went right and through until I was about 12 when I started to get very good at avoiding being around when he was in the house and I would go to a friend's house or I could do homework because, you know, I just I learned what was going to be an acceptable excuse to not be around the house and I had more, you know, independence as a 12 year old at high school and um. 
 
06:33
But I was groomed in a way that I thought it was my shame, I thought it was my fault. I didn't feel loved, I didn't believe I was lovable, I didn't think I was as valuable as other people because I'd been abused and I felt like I had been taken advantage of and I thought it was my fault. I thought I was a sinner and I was a bad person and that I'd asked for this attention. And the reality was was like my parents had six kids. They were running the local church. My dad was a Vietnam veteran dealing with PTSD, my mum had a child at 42 and had postnatal depression, so they weren't emotionally available and I was very neglected and I was very by myself as a little kid and all of a sudden I started getting attention from this uncle. And as a child and as adults, we all need attention. There's nothing wrong with attention. It is a human essence that we need, like food and air and sleep. We have to have some form of connection and attention from someone, and as a child, I was starved of attention and I started getting sexual attention from this man, and so it was a very confusing time of growing up, thinking that I liked it, also trying to protect my little sister, making sure that he didn't give her attention. So if I saw that he was going towards her, I would be like no, I want to play with you, you know. So it was a really challenging time. 
 
07:56
And then, once I started to learn to avoid it, I did high school, and it just became this like shameful part of my own story that it was my sin, that I had to hide, I had to shave. I put this big mask on, I became the nerdy kid. I became the worship ministries leader and the school captain, and I tried to be the good person that everyone wanted me to be. I tried not to be shy, because when you're shy, people like are you okay? And I hated that question right. So I got really good at being in big groups. I had one friend who, um, I was able to say I had a best friend, so that no one thought I was weird and had no friends. You know, it's like I created this world of mask around me to make me appear like I was fine, so that no one would see how simple I thought I really was. 
 
08:47
And in that shame, though, I found music. So when I was about six, I saw my dad playing the piano and I just felt it. I just felt that peace that came with it. So I started getting piano lessons, and when other people were away, I would be learning and doing stuff on the piano, and I learnt drums because my piano teacher said I had no rhythm. I think she was just trying to get my parents to pay for more lessons. 
 
09:14
When we were travelling, I would do music theory and I was obsessed, but I never told anyone and I was very shy because the music was attached to my shame and the music was attached to who I really was and my core belief and this is this is where core beliefs is a whole thing. 
 
09:30
You should check it out but my core belief was that I was unlovable, that I was not valued and that if people really knew who I was, that I would be completely cast out. So and that was that was attached to my music, because when I, when I sat at the piano or when I wrote even I had I have so many diaries when I was younger, when I would write and I can't spell either dyslexic and crazy, and I was terrible at English, and now I'm a writer. It's so weird I tell my kids that because my son is like I can't, I'm bad at English and I'm like you can be really good at something. Just because you can't spell doesn't make you bad, because storytelling is a really big part of English. 
 
10:09 - Alexis (Host)
Storytelling is a lot to do with what we do with songwriters
 
10:12 - Rae Leight (Guest)
Exactly, and I'm like I laugh at it sometimes because English teachers that I had as a kid would be like if I had have told them that I was going to do anything to do with writing or spelling they would laugh their ass off. 
 
10:26
So, yeah, it's one of those things that I think I just was attached to me, processing my emotions. 
 
10:32 - Alexis (Host) 
Music was your lifeline, 
 
10:35 - Rae Leigh (Guest) 
It was my lifeline, it was my prayer, like I was calling out to God, and a lot of my songs of just like help me, I'm suffering, like I'm just I can't breathe because I was so stressed, organizing my life so that no one could see what was happening because I was this bad person that that blocker was there because of the shame of what I was, and the music gave my body a manifestation of a way to process the body stuff that my brain could check out of. So there was, like this, what do you call it? Decompartmentalisation? That was happening and this is why, in my podcast, I say music saved my life because, it really did so because music was my lifeline and I could see people being rejected when they showed someone their music and then they got rid of their music, I was like all of a sudden like I'm like this is my music. No one's going to take this me. I'm never showing anyone this because if they take my music from me, I will die I've got nothing, I will have nothing. 
 
11:44
And and I believed that and I say that loud now and I'm like, but like, I honestly believed that if someone took my music from me, I would have nothing. I'd have absolutely nothing. And when I became a mum at the age of 23, I very quickly became aware that I was a victim of child sexual abuse. I didn't have the belief, like the understanding, that I was a child. Do you know what I mean? It was just I brought it on, I was groomed, you know, and so I thought it was my fault. I'd asked for it. Blah, blah, blah, 23, holding a baby in my hands. Oh my gosh, this baby is not going to know the difference between right or wrong, probably for the next 20 years, but let's give them at least 10. You know like they don't know anything and they fully rely on adults around them to tell them what is right or wrong. 
 
12:34
And that was when the penny dropped. I was like, I was taken advantage of, I was sexually abused and I was a victim of sexual abuse. And all of a sudden there was just everything changed. This mother wolf was born. So I reported it to the police with the support of my husband the reluctant support of my parents because they were worried about further traumatisation. I thought, as long as I tell the police, then the blood's off my hands, the authorities know and then they can deal with it. And then it did. 
 
13:02
It turned into like a fast-tracked three-year court case. It went to trial in Victoria, which is where it happened, and I got a guilty verdict. It took three days to share my testimony and I was cross-examined and it was really intense. But we got a guilty verdict of nine different charges of indecent sexual assault towards a minor and along with that whole court case and the closure that I had because of that and the healing that was able to start happening from that and I felt something I had never felt before in my life, I felt happy. I have a song actually called I Need Faith that I released and that was the song that I sang through my entire life. 
 
13:45 - Alexis (Host)
That's very brave to be able to be that transparent. So thank you. Now, when you're creating, do you have an object or thing that you can't live without when you're creating, and why? 
 
13:58 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
Like outside of, like my guitar and my piano and stuff. I still like to write on a notepad and pen. 
 
14:03 - Alexis (Host)
Well, yeah, for some people they've yeah, said that you know it's their instruments, even though they're a tool. And some people it's um. Had one person they still have the printout um ticket from the first concert that they ever went with their dad. 
 
14:23- Rae Leigh (Guest)
Oh, that's so cool 
 
14:26 - Alexis (Host) 
And it just they don't look at it all the time. It's it's, but it sort of sits near their computer and it's just a thing that they know is there. Yeah, it's not's not like they, you know, it's their lucky ticket that they have to touch or something, but it was yeah. So everyone's different. Everyone's got either a thing or a not thing. 
 
14:40 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
I mean, I have journals and like Bibles from when I was a kid, that like were my you know life, that I look at now and can barely comprehend what I'm saying because it's in like dyslexic speech that I've never thrown out. 
 
14:58 - Alexis (Host)
If you could give one piece of advice to another creative person, what what it be? 
 
15:06 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
If you're always in the right place and you're always prepared, eventually it'll be the right time. And I have had people go oh how do you always get all these opportunities? And like, how do you do this stuff? And I'm like, I'm prepared, like I practice my instruments, I'm constantly writing new songs, I've always got more product adding to my catalog. I'm working every day behind the scenes being prepared. You have to be confident enough in your skill of what you do that you can drop everything and do that tomorrow. So, yeah, be prepared, 
 
15:41 - Alexis (Host)
Perfect advice. I love it. What resources would you recommend if someone wanted to do what you do or just as another creative? Yeah, like someone who wants to develop their creative process.
15:52 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
Read books. I mean, I love self-development books so I'm on Audible because I am a taxi mum, I'm driving to schools so I listen to audiobooks all the time and there are so many great audiobooks. I could just show you my library and that's a great way for me to absorb, even like driving to Victoria two Audible books in that 17-hour period. It's great. And then music. 
 
16:15 - Alexis (Host)
That's why I love driving across the Nullarbor or driving around WA, because it's so massive and you just get to immerse. 
 
16:19 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
And when I fly, I'll take a book, so I love reading and getting other people's experiences and I totally think it's absolutely fine if you're only half-read a book. Sometimes you'll be through a book and you'll know whether you want to spend or invest your time in that book or not. Um, I try to finish it, but sometimes you will find books that just aren't page turners. Don’t force it.  
 
16:41 - Alexis (Host)
If you could have any other creative, come on to this podcast and answer these same questions. Who would you want to hear answer these questions and why? 
 
16:56 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
Leonard Cohen. I really like Leonard Cohen and I don't know why. So I would be curious. I'm curious as to how and why his brain ticks, because he has his books of poetry, all his lyrics and songs and just has that power in his creativity to bring people together and feel that way and treat each other in such a way. That's a gift. 
 
17:26 - Alexis (Host)
Rayleigh, thank you so much for coming through the creative door. This has been, I feel, so privileged to have had this chat with you. Thank you for being so gracious with your words and your story and, yeah, thank you for the laughs too. You're such a vibe, so great. Thank you, thanks, very good. Thank you. 
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of Through the Creative Door. If you enjoy our episodes and find value in them, consider supporting us by making a donation. Just visit buymeacoffeecom forward slash through the creative door or via the link in our Instagram bio where you can choose an amount and even write us a little message. Every little bit helps and we truly appreciate all of your support. But if you can't donate, no worries, you can still help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends and family and leaving a review on your favourite platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community. We'll catch you on the next platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community. We'll catch you on the next episode. Bye. 

17 | Vulnerability in Creativity with Blake William

In this episode of Through the Creative Door, host Alexis Naylor dives into the vibrant world of pop punk with singer, producer, and multi-instrumentalist Blake William. Blake shares insights into her creative process, the importance of nurturing a safe space for artistic expression, and her journey as an openly transgender artist. From discussing the challenges of overcoming self-doubt to reflecting on her own projects, Blake offers an honest and inspiring glimpse into her life in music. She also reveals her go-to tools for creating, offers valuable advice for aspiring musicians, and shares the special memento that keeps her motivated. 
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Blake on instagram; @ blakewilliamsau
 
This episode was recorded on 13 April 2024 on the lands of the Eora Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
 
Creative resources from Blake:
> Ultimate Guitar: https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/
> GarageBand
> Logic 
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
 
—-----------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hello, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. May we pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. I’m delighted to welcome you to Through the Creative Door. 
Hello Blake, how are you going? 
 
00:51 - Blake (Guest)
I'm not too bad, thanks. How are you doing? 
 
00:53 - Alexis (Host)
I am amazing, also very chuffed, to be here chatting with you. Thank you so much for coming through the Creative Door. Well, I'm actually coming through your Creative Door because I'm in your amazing space 
 
01:05 - Blake (Guest)
Yeah, thank you for having me. It's awesome. I'm super, super happy to be part of it. 
 
01:11 - Alexis (Host)
So good. Can I just say your music is so goddamn catchy, it's earwormy. So earwormy. 
 
01:19 - Blake (Guest)
Thank you, I'm sorry I do have to say this thing about Breathe, to give the compliment back. I was listening to Breathe this morning and it's been also in my head. 
 
01:27 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, thank you. Yeah, I feel really chuffed. I got to work with a friend with that song and it was just I don't know. It's like what we do is nice to work with community and yeah, it's cool. 
 
01:39 - Blake (Guest)
But the best things always come out of those sort of collabs. 
 
01:42 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, exactly, that's why I love what we do. Yeah, um, but back to you, because we're going to talk about you. Um, you, for those listening, you have this amazing, uh, body of work doing like pop punk, I mean. You were a very multi-talented bear, you, because, of course, I wouldn't be doing my job right if I hadn't stalked you. So I know that you can play lots of instruments Guitar was your first instrument, yes, but you can play drums and you're an amazing producer and you've got a phenomenal tone in your voice. But so I'm just so excited to chat with you. I feel a bit starstruck. So the format of the Through the Creative Door is and I sent you all these questions beforehand but what does a creative space mean to you? 
 
02:42 - Blake (Guest)
I think for me it's a, and I might get a little bit sappy with this, I think it's a place where you can, a place where you can be vulnerable. Um, like this space that we're in today is my little makeshift uh recording studio, which is by all means nothing fancy, but I know that I'm safe in here. Um, I have all my animals around me, my wife around me, and I know that I just feel comfortable in here. And there are things like even just recently, there's some songs I've written where there's a line I'm like I don't think I should do that. 
 
03:19
Maybe that's too far me, that's this, but maybe in another space I would feel less confident with that. But just being here, I'm like, no, you know what, I'm here, that's this, but maybe in another space I would feel less confident with that. But just being here, I'm like, no, you know what, I'm just going to take this chance and I'm very much I'm very much a homebody. So just kind of having a space, whether it be this or even just in my house, having that, to just sort of absorb myself in it, it really is helpful and allows me to sort of block out any extra noise, even if it's like internally there's voices like you shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do this, being in a space that you're so comfortable with and you're so used to it. Just it lets you be more vulnerable and I really, I really appreciate that about the little space I've sort of built for myself. 
 
04:07 - Alexis (Host)
Amazing, amazing. Speaking of bodies of work and, um, yeah, doing that reflection, have you a body of work or a piece of work that you're most proud of creating and do you want to share? Or can you share, like, how that came about?  
 
04:27 - Blake (Guest)
um, I think it's the typical artist thing to say the latest thing I've or the next thing I have coming is my favorite, but I I don't know, I think, like the two that come to mind again, maybe recency bias but the latest single I've put out um, at the time of recording this, was Renegade, which I put out in January, I believe earlier this year, and it was as you mentioned earlier. I've been doing pop punk. That's basically what I was raised on. It's what I've shaped my songwriting around, my production around, and while I am really happy with all the songs I've done in the past and how they've sounded, this one was just like I intentionally wanted it to be basic musically, like melodically, just four chords. Lyrically, like it's still something really important and I mean it really means a lot to me. But I just wanted it to be simple, straightforward and I feel like I nailed it with that that I'm just like like all it's weird, all this extra hard work goes into making something sound like it's less work, if that makes sense, like. There's definitely songs I've done before where I've, like um, overanalyzed too much and I'm still happy with the song but it might be a little bit messy or just bits and pieces here, whereas this one it ended up just being like not perfect, but for what I wanted. It was exactly what I wanted and I was super happy with that. 
 
05:55
And then the other one that comes to mind is um, a song I released a few years ago now I think it was during during the COVID times. Lockdown times called Anymore, and it was the first time I'd ever worked with loops. So like I use Logic Pro for all my production and there's a massive loop library there that just takes up a shit ton of space on my hard drive. But I never touched it and I was just like I wonder what stuff's in here and like I I can't say I'm uh super fluent in EDM or anything, but I I do enjoy some, like if I hear like house music or just some types of EDM, like I quite enjoy that. 
 
06:34
And I was like I wonder if there's a way just to sort of implement that. And I just found this loop that was really catchy, very EDM, very like house music, edm, very like house music. But I just kind of put like big drums to it, big guitars to it and wrote this chorus melody that was fairly simple but it like I went into falsetto, which I'd never done before, and just kind of like all over the place, but I think that's uh. I kind of have, uh, the extreme on both ends. I have Renegade, where I just want to be as simple as possible. I love how that turned out. And then I have Anymore which I wanted to play around with and experiment with and I still like I'll listen to it now sometimes and be like okay, no, I am still, I am so happy with that, almost like reassure myself like was I just kind of caught up in in the moment, but like no, I still enjoy that, I'm still happy with how that went yeah.
 
07:28 - Alexis (Host)
Now getting real personal here. Has there been something personally or like yeah, through your career or like something that has challenged your creativity, and how do you think you were able to overcome that? 
 
07:47 - Blake (Guest)
I think the biggest thing has probably been like, I'm quite openly transgender and I came out 2021 I believe it was and after that I still was doing music, I was recording stuff, I was writing stuff, but it wasn't, it wasn't as frequent, uh, I wasn't doing as much and it was kind of, I guess, a bit of the voice in my head like you have to completely change or you can't do the same thing or or whatever, whatever dumb thought it may be. Again, apologies for my lovely dogs in the background, but, um, yeah, like I have a friend, I have a, I have a friend who's also transgender. She's an artist herself, and both of us met after both coming out and sort of restarting our careers or rejuvenating, whatever it is. And it was funny we both we realized we both had that same mentality of like, damn, am I not gonna be able to do music anymore, I'm not gonna be able to do this. 
 
08:50
And then I think a big influence for me, um, even before coming out, was, um, Laura Jane Grace of Against Me, um, an amazing punk band from Chicago, and seeing that she embraced her true self, like she was able to be who she truly was, but then also she didn't compromise herself as a musician, like she still sang the same way, she still performed the same way. She was just, she was who she wanted to be, and I think that really helped of like, okay, I don't need to, I guess, fabricate someone else or whatnot, like I can still just perform like I always perform I'll. I mean, now I'll dress how I want to dress and obviously identify how I do. But, um, but yeah, I think a mix of a mix of seeing her and how she refused to, I guess, give in to that, um, that pressure any preconceived. 
 
09:51
Yeah, exactly yeah and then, um, even once I'd already started doing things again, um, that good friend of mine her name is Noctica, you should definitely check out her stuff um, but, um, having having that talk and both sort of realizing, like, once you get into it, like yeah, I can still do this, like no one's. It's no one but the, the voice in your head that's saying you need to change this, we need to do this. So I think that was a that was a bit of a thing to overcome, but then it was it's such a little thing that felt like such a big thing. So once you overcome that, it's like oh this, what was I so worried about? But at the time it feels like a monumental thing that you've got to overcome. So, yeah, I think that's probably probably the biggest thin
 
10:37 - Alexis (Host)
Thank you so much for sharing. Okay, so we're going to talk about like this is so random, but I love it. Is there any object or thing that you can't live without when you're creating, like sentimental or like just like a tool that you just like can't creative without? 
 
11:04 - Blake (Guest)
I mean my brain went to the obvious of guitar, laptop, microphone, but, um, I don't know. Like I'm looking around my little space now I just kind of have little trinkets of like collected stuff over the years, like I just have so much stuff everywhere. But I think one thing that's really cool and honestly I haven't even really thought about it until right now. But, um, I have a ticket from the first ever like proper concert I went to, which was ACDC, and I was like 10 years old, so that's awesome and I think like I don't even notice it's there most of the time, it's just there. But I think it's really cool having that to just sort of be like that's the first time being like, oh shit, I want to do this and now I'm definitely not on that scale yet. Hopefully one day. But like yeah, it's. I guess subconsciously it's a little reminder of like keep pushing, you're all well, you're almost there, in a way amazing. 
 
12:07 - Alexis (Host)
I love it. Who bought you that ticket? Who went with you? 
 
12:11 - Blake (Guest)
um, I think that was my dad and my uncle. Um, my uncle passed away a few years ago and he was always a massive ACDC fan. So, especially looking back in hindsight, that was a really special thing to be a part of and, um, yeah, it was just amazing. I still remember having because I think the only concert I'd been to before was maybe the Wiggles growing up which hey don't, I'm not knocking, I'm not knocking. 
 
12:37
I'm not knocking, but I'd say like not that I, not that child me, regretted that, but it wasn't necessarily my choice. Whereas this was, this was your choice. This was my. I'm going to ACDC, but I just remember having earplugs. I think I got given earplugs because like, oh, it's going to be loud, it's going to be loud. And then the second it started I was just like, no, don't need that. Which is, maybe I should have stuck with earplugs for all those years and many, many, many gigs. But here we are. 
 
13:01 - Alexis (Host)
You can still hear, you're fine. 
 
13:06 - Blake (Guest)
I can hear I might need a hearing test, but I can hear I might need a hearing test, but I can hear. 
 
13:11 - Alexis (Host)
Tomato, tomato. Yeah, if you had a chance to give another creative a nugget of advice or a bit of wisdom. 
 
13:22 - Blake (Guest)
what would that be? Oof See, I find that so hard because I feel like I'm the one still wanting and needing advice. 
 
13:31 - Alexis (Host)
Well, you could flip it and be like if someone wanted to do what you do. 
 
13:36 - Blake (Guest)
I think I have just from recent times. I think I have a good one. Like 12 months ago my goal was I want to play shows again. I haven't played since COVID. Even then I wasn't doing too much like some sort of background gigs. But I want to be playing with bands that I love or venues that I love, and I pretty much just for all intents and purposes, just went, fuck it and just emailed every single venue, every single promoter, and majority of them I never heard from. Some of them were just like oh, you know, not really I want to blah, blah, blah. But then there's the ones that did stick gig back, I guess, which was at um Crowbar in Sydney, one of my absolute favourite venues, favorite places to be. So that was insane. And then to this day I'm still, just, still, just emailing people until either they tell me to stop or just, or they'll just be like just give her a gig, just just give her a gig. See what happens.
 
14:37
And I mean for the most part, most part it's worked out and like, from that I have sort of met more people from that community or that I was talking about and have networked more. And I'm the most socially awkward, shy person like. When I'm on stage I feel quite comfortable. It's almost like another character in a way. I can just sort of like turn that up for half an hour 45 minutes, but when I'm off stage I'm super anti-social, like. 
 
15:07 - Alexis (Host)
You mentioned before that you like being at home.
 
15:13 - Blake (Guest)
Yes, very much a homebody. I'd say I've improved over the last year. I think finding this community has really helped that, like having like-minded people that I'm like, oh, I'm actually excited to, you know, go hang out with someone or go to a show with someone or whatnot. But yeah, usually I'm just super anti-social, but I've just sort of it started with forcing myself to like okay, I want to network with people, I want to, I want to find people I can work with and eventually that turns into becoming friends with people and it just has made the whole thing a lot easier. So, long story, short email people until they tell you to shut up.
 
15:52 - Alexis (Host)
 That is the best quote, the best advice yeah
 
15:56 - Blake (Host) 
I'm glad I'll put that on a shirt. 
 
15:58 - Alexis (Host)
 Amazing. Well, you're going to put it on a post-it note later. 
 
16:00 - Blake (Guest)
Yes, I'll remember it. 
 
16:05 - Alexis (Host)
I've got some extra questions. Yes, knowing that you have delved into like production and obviously you, like you were saying before about you know learning different instruments do you have any advice of whether it be software or or like resources for learning instruments? Or, if someone wanted to do what you do, what resources would you suggest? 
 
16:32 - Blake (Guest)
Like I'd have for guitar and vocal. In terms of instruments, I'd say they're my main ones. I did start with tutors and start with lessons, like when I was really young. I think I started guitar when I was like six years old and I just sort of got to a point with that where not that I didn't need lessons like I know there's still a million more things I could do but I was just comfortable at a point where I could help myself progress. And there's some great websites like Ultimate Guitar I've used, which has like chords and tabs and stuff. But even over the last few years I think they've started introducing like videos and tutorials and stuff like that. 
 
17:14
It's really weird. I feel like I'm the last of the generation before like YouTube learning, like I obviously grew up with YouTube but I had in-person physical lessons which like people who completely teach themselves or learn online, like that's amazing. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But I will say there is. There is something still valuable on that, like one-on-one connection. Um, like, I still remember a lot of my early guitar lessons in those formative years but, um, yeah, I'd say I'd say whatever works best honestly, like even now I'll if there's a song I hear that I want to cover or I want to learn that riff or something like I'll just try and teach myself by ear. If I can't do that, I'll look up the tab or look up the chords. So like, obviously you don't need me to say it, but there's a million and one ways that you can learn nowadays. 
 
18:15
But, um, one thing specific to me, I think, when people ask about production, I use a software called Logic Pro. Um, it's kind of Pro Tools has always kind of been considered the industry standard, at least that's what I was always told. But, um, logic Pro, I've always preferred just a bit more, bit more songwriter, creative, friendly, and basically I started by playing around with GarageBand. I was like oh, what do these inputs do? What do these EQs do? What's a compressor? Blah, blah, blah. 
 
18:45
And then, it just happened to be by chance, our school was offering a course. I think it was like a week course we could go to outside of school where you learn about songwriting and production, which was amazing and the instructor there was using Logic. So I was like, what is this? And because it looks just like GarageBand, but like on steroids pretty much and I went home, um, got logic maybe not straight away I had to convince a parent to let me buy it, but, um, but eventually got logic and I sort of took what I'd learned in GarageBand into this but then was like, oh, I can go further with this. 
 
19:26
It purely just became trial and error, like I listened to not all the time, but I have gone back and listened to recordings I've done when I was like 13 or 14. And at the time I was like this is amazing, this is so cool. I listen. Now I'm like, oh, that was terrible, which I'm sure everyone does but objectively this was production, objectively this was terrible. 
 
19:48
And I just kind of like just taught myself more. I um like found like Logic has amazing plugins built in, but I found like external plugins I could buy, that really sort of helps the sound that I want. And then, if it does get there, there have been some things where I'm like, oh, I want to do this one thing, but I can't quite get there myself, so I'll watch a YouTube video on it and then that'll open up another door of like oh, what's this? And yeah, it just kind of goes nuts from there. But from my personal experience and whatever I've said to anyone who's interested in production, if you can start with GarageBand, if you've already played around with it when you were younger or whatnot, give Logic a go, because it's just GarageBand on steroids. And as long as you're, as long as you have the interest and wanting to put the work and time in, like it's so great for just it's just a wealth of knowledge. 
 
20:48 - Alexis (Host)
Amazing. 
 
20:50 - Blake (Guest)
I notice I have very long winded answers. 
 
20:52 - Alexis (Host)
No, I love it. It's so great. That's what I want. Okay, one last question. If  you could have anyone come on this podcast and answer these questions, any kind of creative who would it be and why? 
 
21:09 - Blake (Guest)
I think for me it would have to be someone that I idolize, because I have many like musicians and producers I look up to that, like I could listen to them talk for hours just about their process, about what they do, just the little minutiae of everything. I have two that come to mind and they're sort of linked because they've worked together a long time. 
 
21:30
Um, Luke Hemmings from Five Seconds of Summer so Five SOS has always been, uh, well, pretty much since they've been a thing, I have been my favorite band. They became my biggest influences because they I'm originally from Penrith, they're from like the Richmond Hill sort of area, and I always saw them as like the hometown band, and just seeing them succeed to this day has always pushed me to be like shit, if they did it from friggin Windsor, like I can do it. Maybe I'm still trying, but maybe. And then John Feldman, who produced their first two records. He's done some stuff recently, but he is just, uh, an absolute icon in pop, punk, alternative rock. Um, I'd say, from like 2013 to 2017 or 18, like all of my favourite albums, all my favourite records, came from him. 
 
22:24 - Alexis (Host)
I love it. Oh, Blake Williams, what an absolute pleasure it's been chatting with you. Thank you so much for coming on to Through the Creative Door. 
 
22:32 - Blake (Guest)
That's all right, thank you, it's been such a joy. Thank you so much. This has been amazing. 
 
22:43 - Alexis (Host)
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of Through the Creative Door. If you enjoy our episodes and find value in them, consider supporting us by making a donation. Just visit buymeacoffeecom forward slash through the creative door or via the link in our Instagram bio where you can choose an amount and even write us a little message. Every little bit helps and we truly appreciate all of your support. But if you can't donate, no worries, you can still help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends and family and leaving a review on your favourite platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community. We'll catch you on the next platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community. We'll catch you on the next episode. Bye. 

16 | If You’re Not Making Mistakes, You’re Not Growing with Carl Knox

Join Alexis as she delves into the lush, plant-filled world of Carl Knox, a 3D artist, mural artist, photographer and videographer whose journey spans from anime-inspired artistry to astrophysical content creation. Carl shares his inspiring story of transforming a childhood passion into a diverse career, tackling challenges, and finding joy in his customised creative spaces. From his poignant mural tribute to his dog Zen to designing innovative solutions for his father, Carl's reflections on the value of a supportive environment, balance and the importance of time and space in creativity. Tune in for an honest, heartfelt conversation that celebrates the artistic spirit and the pursuit of one's creative dreams.
 
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Carl on instagram; @knoxcarl
 
This episode was recorded on 8 February 2024 on the lands of the Woiworung Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor. 
If you love what you hear and would like to support us, donate to: https://buymeacoffee.com/throughthecreativedoor 
 
Creative references from Carl:
MasterClass: https://www.masterclass.com
The Creative Act: A Way Of Being - Rick Rubin 
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
 
—---------------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hello, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. May we pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. I’m delighted to welcome you to Through the Creative Door. 
Well, hello, Carl. How are you? Thank you. 
 
00:53 - Carl (Guest)
Thank you
 
00:54 - Alexis (Host)
I am so chuffed. Thank you so much for letting us come through your creative door that's filled with so many plants. I'm so excited about this. 
 
01:02 - Carl (Guest)
Plants make me happy. They make, make, yeah, they clean the air, they look visually beautiful and, uh, yeah, they definitely make my creative space much more pleasant to be in. 
 
01:17 - Alexis (Host)
And it’s such gorgeous light coming in here absolutely stunning. Um, I want to start with a bit about you before I launch into all these questions. I don't even know where to start. You are such a talented bear, oh my goodness. I mean, truth be told, I'd already done a little stalky stalk of you before we had a chat today, but even off mic we just had a bit more of a chat of like sort of current work and things that you're doing. 
 
01:42 - Carl (Guest)
Wonderful. I love tech. I love computers. I used to love Astro Boy watching cartoons. Astro Boy for me is a Japanese cartoon. I used to love drawing and painting in the Japanese style of manga and anime. That's where I started. I had a job in the tax office at tech support doing help desk, helping people install tax software over the phone and while I was taking calls I'd be drawing out of an anime book and learning. You know those? 
 
02:11
How to draw manga books yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, so I loved that sort of stuff, so I started drawing, and then my dad saw that I had an interest in art and he found a 3D animation course in Melbourne and I lived in Canberra at the time. 
 
02:24
So he said do you want to do this? And I said absolutely so. Dad was always very supportive of me studying the arts and becoming some form of artist and then, once I'd got that scholarship to go into computer animation, everything else just fell away for me. I didn't really focus on my school, like my high school grades. I didn't get the greatest grades in high school because I already knew what I wanted to be. Yeah, like I don't need to go to university, I've got my future set ahead of me, like yeah. And so I went down that path hard, all in being an artist amazing. 
 
02:58 - Alexis (Host)
I know that I'm in your lovely home. Thank you for having me in here. We're down one side that's like full of plants and like delicious sunlight, but you've also, down the other room, got your other creative space, which is obviously you sit at a computer quite a lot for a lot of your work. But what does a creative space mean to you and why do you think? 
 
03:25 - Carl (Guest)
This room is incredibly conducive to creativity. I like to have a lot of open space, not too much visual clutter. Everything in this room has to either have a use or be aesthetically pleasing. In this space I don't have a lot of plastic. Plastic tends to have a certain association for me. I much prefer earthy, natural. There's a lot of wood, there's a lot of plants, ceramics, that sort of thing. So this space generally and it's just an aesthetic thing as well I just over time I've I know what I like and I know what gives me inspiration. So if I'm in a room that doesn't have these things, I can definitely still be creative. I know enough about my creative process. I can sit in a cardboard box and be creative if I need to be. 
 
04:11
But it's not. I'm here every day. I work from home, so I want to make this room as conducive to creativity as possible, and that means having everything ready to go. So there's a lot of instruments lying around. I'm not a professional musician, but it does help change my way of thinking. If I'm stuck on a project, I will move to another project temporarily just to loosen me up a little bit. So, yeah, I often have three projects on at any one time at least. 
 
04:38
And I would probably just say like, yeah, if you're starting out new to being creative or anyone that's creative, I would promise you they've got thousands of ideas running around in their heads. It's like oh, I want to start a podcast, I want to do a range of t-shirts, I want to learn how to do this and do that, and it's so important to acknowledge those wants and those dreams. Most people don't acknowledge them at all and therefore they're not passionate about anything. So they don't acknowledge them at all and therefore they're not passionate about anything. So they don't know what they want to do with their spare time, and then they just go on instagram or they go out drinking with their friends. But if you've got a slight creative bone in you when you say I want to start a podcast, write it down, put it on a list, and then, when you're bored, you look at that list and you go, oh that's right, I'm interested in learning how to do that, let's find a course on it, let's buy a microphone, let's meet some interesting people, let's start a podcast, and so validating that desire to be creative is so important and such a valuable thing to do in your creative space. You should have a big list of things that you want to do and have it on the wall, and for me, I choose the top three things on my list. If you look at my list, I've got hundreds of things in that list, but you look at that list and you prioritize, you say which one is the most important to me right now for the next year, and I put I pick my top three and I put them on the top of that list and then I just break them down and then I go down that path. If one year it's going to be murals and I do a deep dive into finding mentors, finding online courses, buying the materials and trying to be a mural artist and just sucking at being a mural artist for a long time and you will suck, and that's part of it as well. 
 
06:16
Um, and so finding, yeah, having your creative space with your to-do list and then also linked to that space, is time. So I work in astronomy. A lot of the work that I do is I work at Swinburne University in the Centre for Astrophysics and Supercomputing. Four days a week I do content for that department with their astronomers, creating content for them, and Einstein's special theory of relativity links space and time together, and so it's the same in the creative world that if you have a creative space but you don't have time, that creative space is null and void, it's wasted. 
 
06:56
So you have to set time aside as well, not just a space, but a day a week. If you, you know, really want to honor you bit yourself being a creative person, set aside time. Set aside time to play, to explore, to make a mess, to watch some tutorials and learning from other people without distraction. Sit down in your beautiful creative space and say I am going to get better at something for a little while. So that's yeah. This room here it's so beautiful to sit and spend time in as well, yeah and that's yeah. 
 
07:32 - Alexis (Host)
I love it. I mean, you've just mentioned, yeah, being able to reflect and be proud on so much that you've done. I guess this next question is probably I'm trying to stitch you up because I'm asking what are you proud of creating and how did it come about? But you probably could say all of the things, but is there one or maybe a handful that you're like, yeah, that's like top notch for me. 
 
07:58 - Carl (Guest)
Absolutely two. Two recent pieces come to mind, and on your way into visiting me today you would have walked past it. There's a beautiful mural on the street downstairs and it's a beautiful mural of my dog, Zen, and Zen passed away two years ago, and it was around the time that we were all going through a lot of change with COVID, and for me, mural painting was one of the things that I picked up as a lockdown skill, and I was terrible at it for a long time, and that's the point of learning a new skill you have to be comfortable sucking at something. 
 
08:37
Sitting in the uncomfortable yeah, absolutely, and that took me a long time to realize that being bad at something is the first step to being good at something. And so it took me a long time, and so that mural is a culmination of a lot of hard work and a lot of dedication, and it's so personal to me as well. 
 
08:58
Zen was obviously a big part of my life, and so the mural if you see it on my Instagram it's of a Japanese dog with a Japanese starburst coming out behind it and there's cherry blossoms on the side and there's a time lapse on there of me painting it on the garage door. But it's designed in 3D like a 3D package software. So Pixar movies are all done in 3D, and that was the first skill that I got as an artist. I learnt to become a 3D animator, and so I designed it and rendered it in a 3D software package called Maya and Keyshot. So Keyshot's a rendering package, and then usually 3D renders just appear on screens. They're just digital and so they never make it into the real world in any way. 
 
09:43
So for me, taking a 3D image and then painting it on my garage door was a wonderful way of combining my 3D skillset with my painting skillset. And it was a huge moment for me because that's my first public piece and it was so personal to me that it was so unique to me as an artist being able to use my 3D skillset, my 2D skill set, and connect really personally in terms of the subject matter and then also how Zen's depicted in the piece, because she's a Japanese breed of dog. A lot of Japanese influence came through in the design. So it's yeah, it's for me, that's one of the proudest pieces I've been able to do in terms of personal connection, as well as so unique to my skill set. Yeah, I absolutely love it. So artistically, that was a really proud moment for me. And then, more recently, there's another proud moment it was a proud son moment. 
 
10:35 - Alexis (Host)
Oh?
 
10:41 - Carl (Guest)
So as, yeah, as a creative, I love the idea of designing and creating things to make the world slightly better, more beautiful. Reduce the amount of work that somebody has to do. Like everything in this house, it's either hung vertically, it's easy access, so I don't have to open doors and, you know, put pans and things away. So I love the idea of minimizing the amount of effort you have to achieve a goal. 
 
11:07
And so my dad had a stroke about a year ago and so he has trouble walking around now. So he needs a walking stick and every morning he does physiotherapy and so he's on like this bicycle machine, this pedaling machine, like you sit on the couch and you pedal and you get blood flow to your feet, and so every morning he needs somebody to help him get into the bicycle, because he his right arm doesn't work as well as it used to, so he needs assistance a lot of the time. So he'd sit in the, he'd sit in his chair and wait for somebody to come and help him every morning, and it's either my mum or it's myself, and I’m in Tasmania, and so I sat on that problem for a long time. I looked, looked at it and went how can I get dad exercising without anybody's assistance? And the bicycle pedals are weighted and so they kind of flip upside down so he can't get his feet in. 
 
11:51
And so I went for a run one day and I came up with a design and it started off. The first iteration was just a pile of books, and the pile of books locked the pedal vertically so he could slide in, and it didn't really work very well until like five iterations later I designed a little foam locking block with a low friction surface on the top so he puts his foot on top of the low surface friction like slidey thing and then slides it in and then just when he starts to pedal the block falls away by itself. So creating that for him made his life so much easier and it's one less thing for me to do and he can start exercising straight away. So designing a small thing like that just for one person I got like, even if it's just for one person, I was so incredibly proud. 
 
12:39 - Alexis (Host)
So well said. On the flip side of things that you're proud of. What do you reckon has challenged your creativity over the years, and is there like a major lesson or lessons that you'd be willing to share? 
 
12:55 - Carl (Guest)
Making a living as an artist was a huge challenge for me. So, yeah, I trained. I went to art school. I trained to be an amazing artist, but in art school, nobody ever teaches you to be a successful business person, and so making money from my art was a massive lesson that I had to learn on my own, and it was incredibly painful and heartbreaking, and I quit art a couple of times because I wasn't being validated financially from it, and so at some point, if you yeah, if you stalk me on in on Google, you'll probably find my website, and there's a lot of commercial work on there there's m&ms, there's pepsi, there's you know, all these illustrations and all these high-end things that you look at that and you go, oh, that's great, this guy's successful. 
 
13:44
But I was doing those things and I wasn't charging properly for them, and so, for me, I was actually running at a loss because I didn't know how to charge properly, and so learning how to run a business was is something that every artist, if they want to be commercial, they need to learn how to do, and nobody yeah, there's, there's no easy way to do it except by sucking and by failing and running at a loss for so long. And then you go oh, wait a minute, I'm charging $90 an hour, but that's not enough, because I'm not like. Yeah, when I realized I went and got a business mentor, I found somebody and I said how do I make this work? And she said, okay, great, let's put all the things that you are good at on the table. Let's have a look at them. And there's wedding photography, there's 3D animations, there's logo design, there's music videos, there's all this stuff. 
 
14:34
And then she goes okay, great, you're a very talented person. That's wonderful. How many of these things do you actually like doing? And you actually like doing and do you want to make money from? And then I said, oh, wonderful, well, let's take half of these things off the list, because I hate logos, I hate doing weddings and I hate all these other things, even though I'm good at them. I'm just like these don't give me joy and this isn't what I want to do professionally. I've got, I can make money from them, but I don't want to choose. 
 
14:59 - Alexis (Host)
Especially when you can choose the ones that, yeah, resonate with you. 
 
15:03 - Carl (Guest)
Yeah, so she only chose the ones that resonated, or I only chose the ones that resonated with me, and I said I only want to do these five things. And she said, great, Now let's just focus on those things. And then she helped me identify what I wanted to be. And then she said now we just need to target clients that need you to solve their problems using these skills, those five things yeah. 
 
15:23
Yeah. And then I said, oh well, that's wonderful, now I don't have to worry about being a wedding photographer anymore. I'm good at it, but I don't want to be that person. She said awesome, let's take it off the list. Let's not make that as one of your offerings. If someone comes to you and says can you shoot my wedding? You say no, whereas previously I'd be a yes man, I'd be like I can do everything. Yes, let's do it. 
 
15:44 - Alexis (Host)
And I don't know if you agree, but do you feel, like when you're a creative, that we're sort of told that narrative that we just have to say yes to everything? I mean, obviously it's different for you because you had lots of different revenue streams, but even as a singer or a musician, I always feel like it's always like you just say yes to every gig. It's like it might not cut the mustard, perhaps in and serving me, but it's just like that. You just want to be seen as the one that always says yes to the opportunities. You don't want to say no to the opportunities. 
 
16:21 - Carl (Guest)
Absolutely. If, especially if you're not having, if you don't have that much money coming in, you kind of go I could do that. And you go, yeah, I could do that. And because you need the money. So back then I was like, can you shoot a wedding? I'm like, yeah, I can do that, I could do that. Yeah, let's do it. And you try it out. And I'm so glad I did try everything because now it allowed me to then, when I had the luxury of choosing which ones I wanted to do, I could say no to some things. But back in the day I had to say yes to everything, and so it's a luxury saying no to some things. And so, yeah, when I went and saw that business coach, I was at the point where I could start choosing my jobs and, yeah, just started saying no to some of them. And then she also taught me how to cost effectively. So I was charging, I don't know, let's say, $90 an hour at the time that I went to see her, but prior to that I was, I don't know, charging $50 an hour or something. She's like okay, well, let's look at that. How much time does it take you to do a project? And I'd tell her maybe eight hours, and she and I'd tell her maybe eight hours, and she's like, okay, that's in an ideal world that you get everything done right the first time. 
 
17:29
Now let's assume that the client wants to make three rounds of changes. That's another two days of work, including meetings that you have to do with them, including emails that you correspond with. Let's assume need to sometimes buy new hardware and your keyboard, a new mouse, a chair, maybe. Let's assume you also need to pay for electricity and all these things. And so I was charging a $50 an hour for eight hours and that was it. And then she say no, you have to add 15% on top of that for Incidentals and to make your business run at a profit, because if you have to hire somebody else at $50 an hour, your business makes no profit. So you are paying a 3D modeller of $50 now. But then there's also the overheads of running a studio, electricity and whatnot. So adding 15% into that will cover it. If, if you need to buy new hardware, those profits cover that. Also, you need to start charging now for meeting times and emails and all those sorts of things. So she taught me how to cost beyond just my hourly rate which is so valuable as a business operator. 
 
18:22
I didn't know how to save for superannuation, I didn't know how to do my taxes, any of that sort of stuff. So I'm an amazing artist, but I was a terrible business operator. So my first business I had to yeah, I had to call it quits, and I had an amazing showreel and an amazing website. And then I went I can't afford to be this person anymore because I need to pay my bills. So I snapped my paintbrushes and I hated being an artist. And then I went and got a nice suit and I got a job as a personal assistant in a corporate world somewhere and I wasn't an artist for a long time because I couldn't financially make it work, and so that was a huge yeah. I was a really good artist. 
 
19:01
And then I had to tuck my tail in between my legs and go look, I can't, I can't make a live, I can't make it as a living, I don't like, I can't make it like this. I don't know what to do. And I just went off and got a normal job and then in my spare time eventually I came back to like I couldn't kill the artist inside me. I'm like it's still there, even if it's hurt, and it it feels like it's a failure because it can't make money. He's still in there. 
 
19:25
And so eventually I came back to painting and drawing, but not because I needed the money, but because the artist inside me still needed to say something and still needed to be an artist. So I started drawing and painting and doing things, and then eventually the corporate job treated me so badly that I'm like no, I think I need to come back as an artist. And then I, by then I knew I'd learned some things about business and I learned how to, yeah, properly charge. And then I came back as an artist and then I got a full-time job at the university. 
 
19:54 - Alexis (Host)
Which is where you are now right?
 
19:56 - Carl (Guest)
Which is where I am now. Yeah, so that took the problem of being an artist for money out. Like it made it easier, because if you're running your own business it's so much extra work, whereas if you just work for somebody else, they handle all the clients, they handle the pay, the tax, the super, the computer, the hardware, the office all that sort of stuff gets handled for you, and then you just show up and be an artist. 
 
20:18
And so being a designer for another studio, or you know somewhere else that they've got a problem that they need solving with your skillset. Then you just show up every day nine to five, be a designer for the man man being management. It's like you just, yeah, just show up and do it and then you come home and you can do whatever you want to do in that spare time. And in my spare time I would always be leveling up, always learning new things. I'm addicted to learning. I can't stop. I love it so much now yeah. 
 
20:45 - Alexis (Host)
Now, yeah, this is probably going to be a hard question to ask again, because you have so many realms. But is there an object, and maybe it's like a sentimental thing that you can't live without while you're creating? 
 
21:01 - Carl (Guests)
Yeah, absolutely, that's um, that's multiple computer screens.
 
21:07 - Alexis (Host) 
I thought it might be something like really like obvious, like that.
 
21:13 - Carl (Guest)
Yeah, I can work on one screen, but if you have a look at my desk, I have four screens on there. I've got two in front of me, I've got one under my desk. 
 
21:19 - Alexis (Host)
You have this really cool like glass desk and like a screen underneath, which is such a vibe. I've never seen that before. I want one.
 
21:28 - Carl (Guest)
I had all these old screens lying around, so I just decided to plug them all in, and I love having I just have loving having access to things. So if it's emails and I'm someone's written in me an email, say, for instance, it's a logo design or something, they'll have eight different points in there that I need to make reference to. So when I'm designing the logo, I make sure to have the email open. I make sure to have all my reference images open, and so that's why I needed another screen, like either down beneath me or to the side, and then I also have a projector plugged in which covers that big wall on the right-hand side there which is currently turned off. But that means I have as much real estate as I can. 
 
22:07
And you'll notice, actually now in the Apple Vision Pros, everyone's wearing these new VR headsets over in America, and that's a sense. It's essentially a VR headset that you can walk around. It's a mobile headset, but what that allows you to do is to pin videos in virtual space around the place, so you can have as many screens as you want around the place, which is wildly productive I think. You'll be able to have recipes open in the kitchen, and then Gordon Ramsay teaching you how to cook dinner versus. And then you walk over the piano and then you'll have all the notes coming towards you, overlaid over over the videos of yeah, of you seeing the piano in real time.
 
22:35 - Alexis (Host)
It’s like the reality version of, like guitar hero.
 
22:50 - Carl (Guest)
That's exactly right, yeah yeah. So the next couple of years, you'll be seeing these virtual screens becoming more and more accessible, and I think that's going to be wildly useful, because I love having as many screens as possible, um, open to me just for reference, making, yeah, making, inspiring me, as many things I can have. When I'm in that zone of creativity, I want to see as many shapes that I'm trying to reference, as many fonts as possible, as many colors, yeah. So multiple screens for me is lovely, and if I can't, if I only have one little laptop, I'll try to have a notebook beside me. 
 
23:13 - Alexis (Host)
If you could give one piece of advice, one nugget of advice to I don't know someone who wants to do what you do, or just another creative, what would it be? 
 
23:34 - Carl (Guest)
It's going to come back to something I said before that you have to being bad is the first step to being good at something. So before you can be good at something, you have to be willing to be bad for a long time. And I love being bad at something now because it means I'm on the journey to growing and it means that it's worth. 
 
23:58
It's worth chasing after something that you're not good at, because if you were good at something, if everybody was good at the skill that you're trying to achieve, it wouldn't be special, it wouldn't be worth being, it wouldn't be worth achieving, because something that's easy is accessible to everybody, whereas something that's hard to do means a limited amount of people can do it, and it makes you more who you are, makes you more unique. You've so many people give up when they suck, and it's such a shame, because that's half the fun. The half the fun is making a mess and trying something new and pushing through that frustration, and it teaches you so many things in life that are worth learning. Learning how to deal with hardship, learning how to deal with struggling at something that you're not good at, getting out of a situation that's uncomfortable through hard work and dedication, because if you're not making mistakes, you're not growing, and so sucking and making mistakes means you're growing, which means you're becoming a more talented person. 
 
24:56 - Alexis (Host)
So true, so true. Got an extra question, what resource would you recommend or resources would you recommend if someone wanted to develop their creative process? 
 
25:12 - Carl (Guest)
I would say put aside a small budget every month to buying things like subscription services or new artistic tools that if you might buy, like look at a paint. If you're a painter, it's like oh, there's a course online for you to. I'm always curious about doing photorealistic portraits, but you know it's a $50 course and it's $50. You know I'm not going to spend that money, but that budget is an investment in yourself. And so, putting money aside every month to pay for something like ChatGPT or any subscription service, even if it's something. I love, there's a series online called Masterclass. 
 
25:55 - Alexis (Host)
I've seen the ads for those. They sound fascinating. 
 
25:58 - Carl (Guest)
It's wonderful it's like Netflix you, most people pay for Netflix and they're happy to pay for Netflix and Masterclass is like a streaming service for creatives, for entrepreneurs, for sports people, any. If you want to learn a new skill and if you want to have a mentor or access to videos of successful people. That's what Masterclass is. 
 
26:19 - Alexis (Host)
One last extra question. If you could hear anyone come on the podcast and answer these questions, who would you want to hear? 
 
26:29 - Carl (Guest)
There's a gentleman named Woody Sampson and he's a local musician in Melbourne, so you might be able to track him down. He's a wonderfully talented musician. He plays almost everything and he used to have a corporate job. He used to work for I won't say who, just in case it comes back, I'll let Woody tell his story. But he used to work corporate and it just didn't resonate with him and so he quit, quit, and now he's a full-time musician and he's such a wonderful person, so much energy. He plays, like I said, he plays trumpet like a weapon. He's a plays piano, he plays guitar, he sings, he DJs. He's just wonderfully creative and he's, yeah, just one of the the happiest people you'll ever meet. 
 
27:07
People like that just light me up. So, regardless of people, if they don't like their art or their music, they're just wonderful people that just have followed their dreams and not listened to what anybody else has ever said and they're happy just being themselves, and so those are the types of people that, yeah, I want to hear more of their stories and more of who they are. 
 
27:26 - Alexis (Host)
Oh my goodness, Carl, thank you so much for this chat. This has just been such a so filled my cup. I love it. 
 
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of Through the Creative Door. If you enjoy our episodes and find value in them, consider supporting us by making a donation. Just visit buymeacoffee.com/throughthecreativedoor or via the link in our Instagram bio, where you can choose an amount and even write us a little message. Every little bit helps and we truly appreciate all of your support. But if you can't donate, no worries, you can still help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends and family and leaving a review on your favorite platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community. We'll catch you on the next episode. Bye. 

15 | Be Kind To Your Artist with Uma Dobia

Join Alexis as she sits down with the incredibly talented singer and creative Uma in this inspiring episode of Through the Creative Door. Uma shares her journey as a musician and performer, from her opera training to her cabaret performances. She opens up about the challenges she's faced, including navigating lifelong food allergies and a recent Crohn's disease diagnosis, and how these experiences have influenced her creative process. Uma also talks about her proudest projects, including her cabaret show “Intolerant” and her powerful songs “Houses On Fire” and “I Will Stand.” Tune in for an honest and heartfelt conversation about creativity, resilience, and the importance of self-compassion in the artistic journey
 
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Uma on instagram; @umamusicoffical
 
This episode was recorded on 24 January 2024 on the lands of the Woiworung Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
 
Creative references from Uma:
House On Fire - Uma Dobia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_KqCHMnqwk 
Haus Of Shmizzay - https://www.instagram.com/hausofshmizzay/?hl=en 
Soula Parassidis - https://www.instagram.com/soula_parassidis/?hl=en 
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
 
—---------------------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door. 
Hello Uma, how are you? 
00:48 - Uma (Guest) 
I'm good. How are you? 
 
00:52 - Alexis (Host) 
Good. I am so chuffed to be chatting with you. You are such a talented bear and I met you through, actually, my manager at the time and her brother, who's a wonderful audio engineer and musician himself. But yes, I think you're just a vibe. You're such a vibe and it's so exciting to see on the outside, looking in, your journey's been changing quite a lot as a creative. You're doing so many amazing things. You are doing lots of opera stuff, which is amazing, and I might have done a little stalky stalk on um YouTube. Oh, so stunning. Oh, my goodness, so jealous. I did do a stint of opera, learning opera when I was in high school, just as a like a dipping your toe in and I'll tell you, there's so much respect there that is hard yakka, hard yakka. 
 
01:43 - Uma (Guest)
It's not easy it's true, it's true, it's never too late. 
 
01:47 - Alexis (Host)
I'm not sure that's my calling I think it's yours and I'm happy for you to talk about that. But um, I'm also super chuffed for you that you have written this phenomenal show Intolerant? Which I'll let you talk to everyone about it. But, um, yeah, just what's a bit about you, and I'm just, yeah, just even chuffed that you're here. Oh, I'm through the creative door, with you. 
 
02:16 - Uma (Guest)
I'm really excited to to be sharing this space with you too. I adore you and I admire you so much as an artist. You've done such gorgeous things
 
02:20 - Alexis (Host)
Aw thanks my love. 
 
02:22 - Uma (Guest)
Very excited to be here, yay. 
 
02:27 - Alexis (Host)
Well, I feel very chuffed that we are outside, very surprising that Melbourne's actually got sorry, that's really mean of me to say, but for those who know, Melbourne is usually four seasons in one day. That's right, it very much is. And we are sitting outside on your beautiful deck, your beautiful back garden, with the sun shining down on us, the birds chirping. It's just delightful, it's pretty nice. 
 
02:53 - Uma (Guest)
This is summer. This is our one day of summer that we get. 
 
02:56 - Alexis (Host)
Just one. That's one. I timed it very well, you did. I'm curious. You have been on this journey as a creative, as a musician, a singer, for a long time, but I wonder what for you, is a creative space. Like, what does it mean to you and why do you think that is? 
 
03:16 - Uma (Guest)
I think for me, the creative space has been in my head and at the piano a lot of the time. Not all the time. Sometimes it's at a cafe, 
 
03:25 - Alexis (Host) 
Oh I love this yeah, do you have a particular cafe? 
 
03:30 - Uma (Guest)
Well, because I've just moved up here to the beautiful Dandenongs and there is one not far down the road that I like to go and set myself up at. But I used to have, you know, my different places that I will go, depending on where I was living you know I lived in closer to the city of Melbourne for six years or so and I had a couple that I would frequent often to do some writing. 
 
03:50 - Alexis (Host)
Love this, first name basis. What’s your coffee order?=
 
03:57 - Uma (Guest)
It's a bit wanky. It's a large, weak soy latte, because I discovered that I liked the less strong flavour but I didn't want a small one, yeah okay, you know so, and that way if I'm really desperate I can have two, but if I've had a double shot, kind of two, I'll be up all night, yeah, anyway, anyway, that's too much information for anyone, but I think, like for me, I remember when I first started writing, writing my own music, which I had done, you know, bits and pieces of as a kid I dipped in and out of all sorts of different creative things, because that's what I love to do but, when I I had one song in particular come to me in a flash of inspiration literally after being on the train, and it came through my head on the train on the way to uni and I was like what am I gonna do? How do I get this out? So I was singing to myself as I was walking from the train to uni and trying to get it in a voice message to myself. 
 
04:50 - Alexis (Host)
How good are voice messages!
 
04:55 - Uma (Guest) 
So good, so good. But I suppose that's the thing is that usually, you know, my creative space is in my head. It's from a flash of inspiration, from a flash of a moment, and usually, very inconveniently, it's when I'm doing something else, when I'm at work, when I'm supposed to be doing other things, and I have to like quickly write something down. 
 
05:09 - Alexis (Host)
I can empathize with that. Mine seem to always come when I'm driving, when I do long stint drives, which is why everyone wonders why I like driving so much. I think they think I'm a bit nuts, but it's because it's like the time
 
05:21 - Uma (Guest)
Yeah, that's right.  Yeah that's right. It's when your mind is focused on something. Yeah, yeah, exactly and you just allow the inspiration to come instead of trying to make it happen, although everything sounds like that too. 
 
05:29
Yeah, you're like I have to finish this, yeah, but, um, but I guess it's so, I mean, ultimately the creative space becomes then taking the idea away and sitting down, you know, maybe sitting down at the piano, um, you know, spending some time working through different ideas. I'm trying more and more these days because I found it really works for me to just move with an idea, like it's the actual act of if I'm feeling inspired to dance or just to walk, you know, really helps me not get stuck in panic of, oh, this idea is crap or you know all that kind of stuff that comes up a lot yeah, so yes, cafes, my own head when you're doing something else and then at the piano when I get like I don't play. 
 
06:15
You know, you have such gorgeous you know gorgeous tradition of being able to play for yourself and do all that kind of amazing stuff. I never cultivated that. That was the one thing I was like. I don't want to practice, I just want to be good, so of course that's right and that never happened, but I play enough to write chords. 
 
06:37
You know around my songs and stuff like that. So when I get in that zone I can be there for hours because I love it. Um, and then that builds upon the other ideas that have already formed. But there isn't one set way I've found for me. There was one song, one of my favourite songs that I wrote way back in the day, came to me. I like woke up with it in my head, and that was another one where I was like where is the voice message? But yeah, it's a little bit random, 
 
07:09 - Alexis (Host)
Or what do they say? You should always put like a pad and paper next to your bed. 
 
07:11 - Uma (Guest)
Oh yeah, I've done that too. Yeah, yeah, I did that with my show. I did it before then, but I did it with my show. In the middle of the night I would wake up and like where's the script? Yes. Then in the morning you're like what the what does that say? 
 
07:21 - Alexis (Host)
Wait. I really need some time to decipher what it was I was thinking at 2am. 
 
07:24 - Uma (Guest)
That's right, and why is it on an angle and why is this letter really big and this letter really? Anyway, very funny, because I don't turn the light on, I just do it in the dark. I don't want to wake myself up. Yeah, true, I want to be able to go back to sleep. 
 
07:46 - Alexis (Host)
True, true. You have done so many things, so I think this is going to be maybe a hard thing to ask, but then maybe it won't be. What are you the most proud of creating, whether it be on your own or collaborating with others? Um, and if so, if there is one or a few things how did it come about? 
 
08:00 - Uma (Guest)
Yeah, I thought about this one a little bit. I there are. There are three things I'm most proud of, and the first is my show which is Intolerant, which I debuted at Melbourne Fringe Festival last year in October and it's coming very excited, taking it to Adelaide Fringe Festival from the 2nd to the 10th of March and then Melbourne Comedy Festival from the 27th of March to the 2nd of April. I've got to get that right. 
 
08:27 - Uma (Guest)
And then really excited to start taking it overseas this year as well. We're planning San Diego, maybe San Francisco trying to work that out and hopefully London as well later in the year which is really exciting, but this is the piece that I'm most proud of, for a few reasons. 
 
08:45
First of all, it allows me to do all the things that I've done, so like the writing and um, which is songwriting, but also some theatre writing. I have done some of that stuff before and I really enjoy it. It allows me to do the kind of performing that I like, which is I've discovered, you know, really being able to have moments with the audience where it's not just you're the audience and I'm the performer, and that's what you know. My journey has been a little bit all over the place, but that's what I came to discover I didn't like about a lot of the very traditional ways of performing, particularly in the opera world, which is kind of where my career has kind of gone more. 
 
09:19 - Alexis (Host)
Was that the thing that you liked about sitting more in the pop? 
 
09:26 - Uma (Guest)
Yeah, I liked the connection with the audience, for sure. And that informal kind of space where you can have connection, and that banter. But what I like about Cabaret, which feels to me like it brings all those worlds together, is that you're also able to create more play and more story and more comedy that adds to a greater story. You know, if you're doing a gig, that's great I love doing a gig but it is not. It doesn't have a shape in a story and a narrative. You can create it through the songs. Yeah, but that's not why people go and see a gig. 
 
10:01
You go and see a gig because you want to lose yourself in the music and enjoy what the artist is putting up there. You know, um, and I like that. Yeah, cabaret allows me to kind of straddle both of those two worlds, but with that informality that pop gives you where you're having a conversation with the audience. So um Intolerant really explores my experiences with lifelong food allergies and Crohn's disease, which I was only diagnosed with not even two years ago. It was in May of 2022. 
 
10:34
So that was a very difficult time, very physically difficult time. But I remember thinking partway through navigating that year because it became a horrific year when, yes, I got diagnosed, finally, after being, you know, sick for two and a half years um, with Crohn's, but without knowing it was Crohn's. Then, after I got diagnosed and we started looking at ways to treat it, I got COVID and then it became long COVID and it was a whole like that year was awful and I remember really feeling like, okay, when I'm well enough, I have to create something from this, like I can't just this is not just time that I'm laying in bed. This has got to come out of me 
It's got to be something and I, um, I think that that drive I don't know exactly what that drive is in me when I've I've had that very strong drive, you know, like I've got to do something about this, or I've got to like I can't let this pain go unacknowledged, like kind of thing. All the three things that I am most proud of. So I'll talk about the other two very briefly you know all. 
 
11:47
All of the projects that I'm really proud of have come from that place. So it feels very connected to who I am and very part of my values and how I've always kind of gone through the world. 
 
11:57 - Alexis (Host)
I can resonate with this so much. 
 
11:58 - Uma (Guest)
Yeah, right, yeah. That's why I like this so much. But it's just, it's so. Yeah, it's connected to my core and, you know, sometimes we forget about that and we go away from it. We have to live in this world. That, you know, pulls us in so many different directions. You lose sight of that, but when you are able to tap into that, it sounds really wanky but you know that essence of who you are you know? 
 
12:19
At your core and you can create something from that. That's so powerful. And I think for me this show, as I said, you know it allowed me to do all the things I love. It's original music, but it's also opera, it's comedy, it's play, but it's also got real moments of intensity and and um pathos. You know, it showed me that I can do that on my own. You know, would I recommend self-producing, not having a director, not having a marketing team?
No, I wouldn't. Uh, am I doing it again for the next rounds? Yes, I am. Would I recommend that? No, but that's how we are when we start, you know, when we're at the beginnings of these things. And it is very different these days in the industry. 
 
13:02
You don't just approach an agent and they appear you know, it doesn't work like that, no, so, uh, or a manager, you know. So, until it happens, you end up doing a lot of this stuff on your own, and it showed me how capable I am to do all of that stuff and to do all this other crap that I have no experience in, and it felt really, as I said, you know, aligned to who I am as a show and powerful, like the audience response was. I was really touched by the people, enjoyed it and felt connected to it, but also that I could do it like that was great. But then, in that same vein, you know, the other two pieces that I did under my stage name. 
 
13:37
The two songs that I'm most proud of are definitely Houses On Fire, which I released in 2020, which is a climate action song. Oh my god, it's amazing. Still adore that song and where it came from, you know. But then the other song that was on, like my very first kind of release, um which was called Girl On Caffeine funny, we talked about coffee um, um, that song is called I will stand, which again is about it's more from a social justice perspective and about, you know, standing up against hate, which feels very applicable now, uh, more than ever more than when I wrote it even. 
 
14:11
But those pieces that they just they hit something really deep in me. So it's not just creating the art, even though that's really fun and I love doing that and art for art's sake and fun for fun's sake and all of that. But when you, yeah, connect in, it's something else. 
 
14:29 - Alexis (Host)
But we're also multi-faceted we're allowed to just do those fun loving songs that are a bit more carefree and then for us to really tap into, like that's right, there's no rules, we're allowed to whatever, yeah, I'm so chuffed that you mentioned um those three projects because they're yeah, they're pretty special, so special. But then on, let's flip it. Yep, what do you think has challenged um your creativity and do you think there was like a major lesson out of that? 
 
15:02 - Uma (Guest)
I think the biggest one for me is um coming up against internal shame like coming up against internal shame like very often. That's really really powerful for me and and bites me in the bum all the time, you know, even when I need to go and practice something and go into the practice room to get started. You know that's my biggest challenge to getting into any creative space and I think that was really difficult in writing Intolerant. 
 
15:30
It made it so hard because so many of the experiences, the stuff that I experienced as a kid with my allergies and not being taken seriously, and then not being taken seriously, you know, with doctors for two and a half years before I was diagnosed with Crohn's, all this kind of stuff and the little things that happen along the way, you know, with things that people don't even think of. You know, like dating when you've got food allergies, is interesting. You know it's intense and you've got to find ways to navigate those things. And because so many of those experiences were wrapped up in so much pain and shame and yucky you know stuff, um, it was really hard to write the show, like I was getting blocked, I couldn't. I kept being like I have to finish this, I have to do it now because I've got to do this, xyz, and it just kept like. 
 
16:24
I just kept feeling blocked and it took a long time to work through that and I, you know, ended up having to talk a lot of it out, you know, with with my mum, with other people that I, you know, knew would be able to listen to it, rather than trying to sit and write it, because normally that's how I would do it and then come back and listen to what I'd said to be able to write it out. So it's those those old, very, very old emotions that really bite me, the bum, the most
 
17:00 - Alexis (Host)
Was there some tools that were you able to sort of? I mean, you just mentioned obviously leaning on your community to help you through that. Were there some other tools that were helpful during that time to try and regulate? 
 
17:12 - Uma (Guest)
I think that is a little bit more when I started leaning into okay, I'm experiencing this really strong thing. I need to move my body somehow. I need to get it out. Okay, I dip in and out of that. Some days I'm able to do that and some days I just kind of go and go much more internal but when I do it it's really really powerful and useful. 
 
17:35
Um, but also I think it was just kind of going learning to let go of that uh sensation like, okay, you're so wound up now, just take a step back, go do something else. Yeah, you're on a deadline, but forget about the deadline. You can forget about it for another half an hour. 
 
17:54 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah an hour is not in the big scheme of things the deadline's there, but an hour, yeah, it's not gonna break the bank. 
 
18:03 - Uma ( Guest) 
Right and I've learned over and over, and, over and over again over my years of everything, not just creating but doing it of life, of adulting, that's right like if you give yourself that time to recover is not exactly the right word, but if you give yourself that time to process stuff, you end up actually being more productive. 
 
18:23 
And not that productivity should be the measure of who, we are. But when you are trying to create something on a deadline, yeah you know saying actually I'm going to give myself the afternoon off, or actually I'm going to give myself the morning off or I'm going to do, rather than being really hard on yourself saying it's not done, just go and finish it right so much more helpful. 
 
18:45 - Alexis (Host)
I don't. I don't know about you, but I always think I, whenever I'm in those spaces, I feel like I need to take a step back and be like, okay if I wasn't talking to myself and I was talking to a fellow human being, would I be saying those things? Probably not. I'd probably be like you need to have balance, you need to eat, sleep, move, see your friends, whatever. You can't work all the time, you can't, yeah and yet I don't know about you, but that, on reflection, it's like oh no, I expect, yeah, the utmost output
 
19:12 - Uma (Guest)
Well, and I think, like well I know, for opera singers and classical musicians in general, but particularly opera singers we're told you have to practice every day, you cannot miss it. You know like, and there's so much, as an opera singer, that you have to build in your toolkit you know, you have to be across the languages, as well as across the technique, which takes a lot of dedication. You have to be across the breathing. You have to be across the style. 
 
19:40 - Alexis (Host)
It’s so hard. 
 
19:42 - Uma (Guest)
It's really hard, right and, and it's impossible to well, unless you, unless that is all you want to devote your time to, it's impossible to have a life and and and maintain that. You know you have to live your life around your art, which some people want to do, and I suppose that's why part of the other reason why I've leaned more on cabaret is that my body is not made for that life. 
 
20:09
You know, cabaret allows me to be able to do that kind of stuff, that really precise work in the context of doing other fun stuff as well, and I think in terms of, you know, pop stuff we also get it from. You must hustle. You want people to listen to your music. You've got to be on top of this. You've got to be on top of that, you've got to be like all this kind of stuff, and I mean okay it's, it's, it's. 
 
20:36 - Alexis (Host)
Look, I mean, nothing we do comes without hard work. No, but I think that notion that you need to be hustling every minute of every day you're almost doing people a disservice because, like, everyone's going to burn out and people are the amount of I'm sure there's people in your community to make you. Yeah, we hear quite often, or not, that people burn out and if not, they have a hiatus, they totally leave the industry. That's right. 
 
21:04 - Uma (Guest)
Yeah, that's right. And also, I mean, I suppose it depends on what angle you're coming from, but the more you hassle people, the less they're going to actually want to engage with you too. So you've got to choose. You've got a big project that you're doing. Yeah, you're hustling around that, but you know, you've got to give yourself the grace too, I think. 
 
21:24 - Alexis (Host)
We need to love ourselves and be kind to ourselves. 
 
21:27 - Uma (Guest)
Yes, we've got to work on those things.
 
21:37 - Alexis (Host)
When you're creating, do you have an object or a thing and it could be something really like practical or it could be like sentimental but do you have a thing, an object that you can't live without when you're creating? And if so, what is it and why? 
 
21:54 - Uma (Guest)
I think for me it's. It's not a specific notebook. I mean, it would be a specific notebook that I've got those notes in, but it's like it's not that there has to be has to be this special one. I just have to have a notebook and usually I've got like the pen of the day, you know, the pen that has been my, my best friend for the last you know few weeks or whatever yeah until it's the next pen. Yeah, you know that kind of thing. 
So I want my favorite pen of the moment and I want my notebook. They're my two like things. 
 
22:25 - Alexis (Host)
I love this, yeah if you had one piece of advice, like a nugget of goodness to give another creative, what advice would that be? What would that little nugget be? 
 
22:38 - Uma (Guest)
I think, taking the pressure off yourself that you have to create in this particular way and you have to do it exactly like this and it has to be done like giving yourself that space to live there wasn't, and knowing and trusting that you're going to come back to your creativity because you are, like it's an innate part of who you are. Just because you put it down for a day or a week, you know, or you're on holiday for a month, it it's still part of who you are, it's still going to be there and that space might actually help you create something even more special, even more connected. I think that was something that was really. 
 
23:18
I listened to an interview with Trevor Noah and, okay, you know, stand-up is not my mode of creativity, although you never know, but never say never, never say never. But, um, he said something about that, how he was like pushing really hard, doing gigs and all this kind of stuff, and a mentor said to him how are you going to get new material? Like, if all you're doing is gigging and writing stuff and preparing for the gig and doing the gig, you're not creating any new material for yourself because you're not living, and I think that doesn't just apply to stand up, it applies to music and it even applies to operate. Yes, we have a lot of practice that has to be done, but if you're not also then gaining, you know, experience in other parts of life or giving yourself the space to develop more, you're not actually going to achieve like that. 
 
24:08
Every one of my biggest achievements or biggest steps forward in my development as an artist have been when I have had a little break that might only be three days, you know, or a day or whatever, but giving myself that space to then come back and it's like, oh, oh, oh, it's all happening. You know, you're just giving yourself, yeah, you're taking, taking a bit of the pressure off. 
 
24:30 - Alexis (Host)
If someone's curious to sort of do what you do, or just even not to even do what you do, but just curious how you got to what you're doing. Would you have any references or resources that you'd recommend, like are there courses or books or I don't know, influences? 
 
25:01 - Uma (Guest)
From an operatic perspective. There's some great like masterclasses on YouTube with, like really famous opera singers, so that will kind of give you a flavour of that world if you want to go looking in that direction. But there are also some really funny influencers on Instagram that do really silly content around opera singers. It's niche. It's niche because it's for opera singers, by opera singers. But there's some great stuff out there, like Haus is in H-A-U-S of Schmizzay is very good. And then Sula Parasitas she's an amazing Greek. I'm pretty sure she's Greek. 
 
25:35
I think she's Greek, she's a very good opera singer and she does some great like content as well. 
 
25:43 - Alexis (Host) 
Amazing. How great is TikTok? 
 
25:45 - Uma (Guest) 
Oh, so good. 
25:50 - Alexis (Host)
We’ve come up to the last question. If you could hear anyone else come on this podcast and answer these questions who would it be and why? 
 
25:56 - Uma (Guest)
Ali McGregor and Kate Miller-Heinke? Very selfishly, I'd love to hear them. 
 
26:01 - Alexis (Host)
I mean, all I can do is try to get them. 
 
26:06 - Uma (Guest)
That's right. I'd love to hear them. And I think you know there are some. There are some amazing artists that we're yet to actually see flourish. One of my dear, dear friends who's in the more comedy space, Hani Elrafi like, has had to really do his thing while having another full-time career at the same time. And I have been you, you know lucky in that respect, in that because I was studying a lot of the time you know, I had to focus on this stuff. 
 
26:42
That was, that was what I was doing, that's what I was studying, and then I was unwell so I couldn't be working all the time because my body couldn't handle it. And you know, lucky to have family support and all those kinds of things. But there are a lot of artists who don't have that and I'd love to hear from some of them to how they've made it work, how they've managed that balance. 
 
27:06 - Alexis (Host)
Yes, I love this. Well, oh, my goodness, Uma that was just delight. Thank you so much for coming or really letting me come through your creative job. No, well, good luck with all the future endeavours and, yeah, I can't wait to check out your show Intolerant, how exciting. 
 
27:23 - Uma (Guest)
It’s going to be really fun. 
 
27:27 - Alexis (Host)
I love it. 

14 | I Never Had a Backup Plan, It Was Always Photography with Anna Davis

In this episode, Alexis welcomes the very talented Anna Hartley, the creative force behind Anna Hartley Photography. From a budding fashion photographer in her university years to a renowned newborn photography specialist, Anna shares heartfelt stories of capturing the fleeting moments of newborns which was a natural path taken through her experiences as a new mother. 
 
Listen as she describes the challenges and rewards of her creative process and business, especially during the turbulent times of the COVID-19 pandemic. Whether you’re an aspiring photographer or just love a good creative story, this episode is packed with insights on staying true to your passion, adapting to life’s changes, and finding joy in the art of photography. 
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Anna on instagram; @annahartleyphotography
 
This episode was recorded on 21 January 2024 on the lands of the Kurnai Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
 
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
 
—---------------------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door. Hi Anna. 
 
00:52 - Anna (Guest) 
Hi Alexis, hello hello. 
00:55 - Alexis (Host) 
How you doing? I am so chuffed. 
 
00:56 - Anna Guest) 
I’m good, how you doing, you doing good? 
 
01:00 - Alexis (Host)
I'm good, I'm good. I am just so chuffed that you are coming through the creative door with me. 
 
01:06 - Anna (Guest)
I know, I love coming through the door. 
 
01:12 - Alexis (Host)
Yes. So for those who are listening, we have just cracked a West Coast Cooler Original yeah, which I've forgotten what these tasted like. 
 
01:23 - Anna (Guest)
I did forget what they tasted like, but I knew when we seen them in Foodworks today we needed them. We needed them in our life and it just takes us back. 
 
01:33 - Alexis (Host)
Full of cool kids. Full of cool kids. I think we should start with just how much of a talented bear that you are. I well thank you. You're very kind of you to say um for those listening, you have this beautiful business called Anna Hartley Photography. And you have done lots of different things in that space. Babies, little wee babies. 
 
02:10 - Anna (Guest) 
Lots of little newborns
 
02:11 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, but you've done your little fair share of you know doing wedding photos. 
 
02:17 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah, I started in weddings. My first five years of my business was solely doing weddings. Oh really, yeah, yeah. When I first started fresh out of uni, I booked a ton of weddings, and so for the first five years I only did weddings. That's all I did. And then I got pregnant with our first little baby, and when she was born I still had, I had racked up a number of weddings that I had to get through because I didn't realize the change and the shift that being a mom would would bring to my business. So I was like, yeah, cool, I'll have a baby and then I'll just keep working the way that I am. 
 
03:02
That'll work, that'll work and it did, it did. But I think I realized about probably like five or six months in I loved weddings and I and I was still always like my, I think starting my business I weddings wasn't the first thing that I wanted to do when I was at uni I majored in fashion photography and that's what I wanted to do 
 
03:29 - Alexis (Host) 
Really? That probably makes sense because you do love to play in that space. 
 
03:33 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah, but then I never wanted to and I never wanted to like move to move to Melbourne or move to Sydney and do that. And so I think when I finished, or like approaching finishing uni, I was like I don't know what I'm going to do now, because my major was fashion and then I just kind of went into weddings and weddings went really well and and it boomed and it was big. 
 
03:57
And then when I had Harlow I I just I don't know, all of a sudden I was like babies grow so fast. They do because you have this newborn and then in six weeks they're an entirely different baby and I think it just made me want to capture every single thing that she did. 
 
04:15
And then, from then, I just my focus changed and I just was like I think I just want to work with babies, and so that was the shift to newborn photography, was through Harlow and how quickly she changed and I just, yeah, it just fully changed the focus of my business. 
 
04:36
And so I spent a lot of time and money in learning and doing different courses and workshops of you know, how to wrap babies and how to safely pose babies and how to do all these things. And I and I spent probably a good eight months on learning although I had a baby of my own at home but how to safely pose a baby in a photo shoot and how to tell if they're too hot or too cold or too, you know, and I and I just spent a really just just a lot of time on learning how I can safely, you know, pose babies and work with babies. And yeah, and that was the shift, and then I became a newborn photographer and then, yeah, now I that's solely mainly what I do 90 percent of my work is still newborns.
 
05:31 - Alexis (Host)
For those listening. You'd better check her out, because we're pretty good pretty cool. 
 
05:37 - Anna (Guest)
Oh, they're just they're born so perfect and they're just yeah, I just love them and I love the way that you can just, you can just pose them and you can just. 
 
05:47 - Alexis (Host)
They're like a little little clay 
 
05:52 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah, they're like a little piece of plasticine. You just kind of mold them into what you want them to do and they just they do it. Yeah, they're beautiful
 
05:56 - Alexis (Host)
So that obviously you know you get to change um the space in which you work in but, I'm curious, like what does a creative space mean to you and why, like I know, you have a studio, yeah, but you haven't always had a studio? 
 
06:20 - Anna (Guest)
I think for me, that question is and it's going to be different for everyone but for me, a creative space isn't always I'm in my studio and now I'm creative, or I'm in my office and I'm editing and now I'm creative because I'm in those designated spaces where I, that's where I work. For me, you know, I find that my creative space is like who I'm with and where I'm at at the time and I think, being a photographer, that could change with the family that you have or the location that you're at or you know, and I'm big on the sun and I tell all my clients like when they book with me, I'll book a session based on, you know, we always have like a little bit of consultation on the phone before a session. 
 
07:12
You know, do you like the beach? Do you like the bush? Are you more of a rustic country person? You, you know, and based on what they choose and what um location they think will fit best for their family, I will then source that location but then I'll work out where the sun's going to be. So my creative space I think it's where the sun is, because I know where I want the sun to be in those places. So I don't think I have like a designated creative space of my studio or my home office. I think my space is where I am at with my clients, yeah, and where that's going to, and it's different for everyone. You know, like, if you choose the beach, it's going to be at this time, because I know that that's where I love to photograph someone at the beach if it's used to I know that bush is going to be an hour earlier than the beach, because that's when the light comes through the trees and yeah. 
 
08:09
So I think my creative space changes every single time that I work with somebody, but I always come back to my office and my creative space then, when I'm editing, needs to be I need to have my music and I need to have something that I'm listening to, that is, I can't edit in silence, I need, I always need music and I need. I need something to listen to. 
 
08:35 - Alexis (Host)
Have you got a particular genre of music?
 
08:38 - Anna (Guest)
Oh, I've got my playlist. Yeah, yeah. I've got my editing playlist, but I think um as far as a creative space. It's not always my studio. It's not always my office. 
 
08:49 - Alexis (Host)
It's a bit more fluid than that. 
 
08:50 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah it is. It's definitely more fluid than that. It's where I am with those people and what they want, it's always the sun. I just, yeah, we did a photo shoot this afternoon. We did. We did yes we did, yeah, and we got there at the right time, when I wanted the sun to be there, and I moved you pretty quickly to where I wanted you to be with the sun, yeah, so I feel like my creative space is when I have somebody in that space, which is outdoor, where the sun is, and I'll move you to where I want you to be. 
 
09:26 - Alexis (Host)
Do you know what's so interesting that you say that, because I've worked with you a fair few times, yeah, and you always do that. Yeah, it's not until you actually say it that I'm like oh, yeah, you do do that. 
 
09:38 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah, my creative space is with the sun. Yeah, yeah yeah, because if somebody says, you know I'll do a photo shoot at like yeah, can we do like 12 o'clock in the day, I'm like no no because the sun isn't where I want it and so I think when I get the sun where I want it and I'm in the space where I want, that's when I can be creative, is when I have the people that I'm photographing in the location that they have chosen or that I've suggested, and I always know where I can get the sun and the clouds where I want them at that time and I think that's where magic happens is when you just get all the lighting right. 
 
10:15 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, yeah. It almost leads me into my next question. What are you the most proud of creating, and how did that come about? Do you think? 
 
10:32 - Anna (Guest)
Like the thing I'm most proud of creating or things that I'm most proud of in my business? 
 
10:40 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, I mean both 
 
10:45
Because I think that, I don't know, being proud is a big question. Um, I don't think I have a particular piece where I'm like that is my proudest piece that I've ever taken. Yeah, um, early on in my, you know, starting my business and you know, in the first probably like five to ten years, I used to always enter competitions and you'd win and then you'd be proud of doing those things, you know you'd be proud of a little bit and you'd be like, oh, that's really cool, like I did that or that was an international award, that was really cool. But I think if I look back and I've had my business now for 19 years I think the biggest things where I can look back and be like big, big points that I'm proud of, they would be that 14 years ago I left my job my nine to five because I realized that I had made this. 
 
11:39
The income that I was making on this on the sidelines, was bigger than what I was making nine to five and so for the last 14 years I've worked for myself and I remember leaving that job and then moving into a scene where I was like I just work for myself now, that was a big, big thing, where I was like that was a proud point for me. Um, and then I think moving forward from that seven years ago was when I got my first commercial space and for me that was a big, because it was like I'm not a home-based business now, I have a commercial studio, and so that was something that I was proud of at the time. So I think there's there's always going to be like little things you're proud of, but then there's the big things, that it was like that's life-changing. 
 
12:27
I work for myself. Now I don't work at home. Now I work in a commercial space. Um, day-to-day little little things. That make me proud, though, is I love when I'll be talking to a client on the phone, because I always do like a little phone consultation with whoever I'm working with, because I feel like it's important to not only book a session online, that you actually talk to them, and and be have that
 
12:53 - Alexis (Host) 
Have that rapport with each other
 
12:55 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah and in those, in those you know little phone conversations and little consultations I have with people, um, so many times people like just photos of the kids. I hate photos of me. We're just doing photos of kids. I'm like, well, dress that you might be in some, because whether you come in track pants or not, you're going to be in some because I'm going to make you not in a bad way. But, and every single time I will take a photo of that parent and I spin my camera around and they look at it and they love it and they're like I hate photos of myself, but I love that one and there's a little part of you that it is…
 
13:34
It's, it's like I had, yeah, this is a little happy, proud feeling because you've made that person feel good. My camera can only take what's in front of them and what was in front of them was them and yeah, that's, that's a nice little proud feeling. That happens multiple times a week. And then I think newly, moving into within the last 16 months, um, I started doing art therapy and working with clients who, a lot of them, are like I have no creative bone in my body. I don't know how to be creative. I don't know how to do art, I don't know how to do anything, and during sessions, over time, even in the first sessions that we work together, they create a piece and all of a sudden they finish the piece and they realize that they can do that and that and I think seeing them so happy and so proud makes me proud that it's almost like you, you know, you drew it out of them and they they could do it, but they needed a nudge and so I think there's
 
14:42 - Alexis (Host)
A little guidance
 
14:43 - Anna (Host) 
Yeah, and so I think, like I don't think that I could look at the time that I've been a photographer and been like I'm proud of, like this piece or this piece. I'm just proud of a few big pieces which were big moments, but then, daily and weekly, I'm just proud of making my clients feel good yeah. 
 
15:08
I think that's. I love that. I love making them feel good yeah, I love it when they make something in a in an art therapy session and it makes them feel good. I love taking a photo of somebody and then they feel good in that photo and 
 
15:24 - Alexis (Host)
It’s a gift, and you’re able to give that gift in all of those capacities I love that. On the flip side of talking about things that we're proud of, have you experienced or had like a challenge that sort of impacted your creativity and, if you don't mind, sharing like if there was one? And what was the major lesson? 
 
15:55 - Anna (Guest)
For me personally a challenge like business wise or or creativity?
 
16:07 - Alexis (Host) 
Creativity, like I think I can speak for myself, there have been times where my physical health with my crips diagnosis in my hand that has impacted my creativity yeah yeah, so you know health wise and um, but I mean, it could be anything yeah yeah, it could be, business could be. 
 
16:27 - Anna (Guest)
I feel like I've been pretty fortunate with like um, physical health and mental health, that I've not had big challenges with those things, and even um, and even you know, during you know, having kids. I feel like after the birth of all our kids, it kind of like rebirthed creativity because I had like a new little person to you know, like my kids would go down for a nap and I would just like pose them and do all these things. 
 
16:59 - Alexis (Host)
You know, you are my play toy
 
17:07 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah, there is. Yeah, but I think for me, probably my biggest challenge, that impacted probably my creativity the most and I hate to say it was COVID. Yeah, because and I and I hate to say that that was what it was but I'd always had like such a smooth run and I'd never really had. You know, obviously there's like things in your life that come and go and they're hard, and but none of them really impacted the way that, like I always went to work or I'd always like that didn't impact what I was doing. 
 
17:38
And then in COVID especially living in Victoria, with our lockdowns I was closed for 11 months. You know, and that wasn't 11 months in a row, but 11 months all up, like, and it was you'd open, then, instead of having newborns, I had babies that were coming in that were, like you know, 12 or 13 weeks old and I had to then, you know, be like you can't fit in my baskets. And then I have to rework what I do because you've booked a newborn session and then now I'm reopened and I've got to change and I think it kind of threw me because I hadn't worked for so long and everyone I don't want to say everyone, but I know a lot of people around me in COVID were struggling, sort of. You know, we're just in this space of nothing and then you go back to work and I'm like this isn't, it was just a new, 
 
18:38
I had to just re rethink of every session that I did because it was all different and even the sessions that the sessions that I had outdoors, the first three weeks of outdoor sessions, anyone under the age of 12 had to wear a mask, so, yeah. So then I was like I can only work with kids under 12 and their parents were wearing a mask, standing at the side, and that, for me, we made it funny, we made it what it was, but I feel like, for me, having babies in the studio that were meant to be newborns and now they weren't, and just re changing props and changing like babies that are 12 weeks don't want to be wrapped like a, like a 10 day old baby. Yes, it's so different, and so I think it didn't. I made it work and everyone was happy with what I gave them, but I feel like that was probably my biggest challenge.
 
19:31
And I'm blessed that that was probably in the 19 years of my business that was the only time that I had that was, I don't know, COVID was a weird time. I think being closed just changed my thoughts and how I thought about you know. I just I think, being somebody that's creative, you always just want to be doing things and you know, 
 
20:01 - Alexis (Host) 
It is difficult to not have the ability to be creative. 
 
20:04 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah, because you can't do your outlet, yeah, you can't do what makes you happy, yeah, and then not being able to do what makes me happy for so long, but then going back and it's entirely different. And so I think, yeah, I think, I think that would, I think that's got to be it, yeah like yeah, yeah, yeah. 
 
20:22 - Alexis (Host)
 I find that this is, this is gonna be an interesting question as a photographer, but is there an object that you can't live without while you're creating, and why? 
 
20:32 - Anna (Guest)
I mean probably my camera. 
 
20:34 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why I was like I feel like it's, but then it could be something sentimental, something random that you might take with you. 
 
20:42 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah, look, I'm not like one of those people that I don't carry anything else around apart from the camera. Yeah, camera, I've always got a spare, I've got two spares. Oh, camera, I've always got a spare, I've got two spares, oh good, yeah, yeah, can't just take one camera. Yeah, I think my camera, but I don't think the sun is an object, but the sun is a massive object. If I could control the weather. No, I just, I just yeah, I don't carry anything around that I you know need for good luck or anything like that, but I do, I always do have a couple of spare cameras, but yeah,
20:20 - Alexis (Host) 
And you're paying attention to where the sun's going. 
21:22 - Anna (Host) 
It's just, yeah, like I'm not going to photograph you at like 11.30am. No it's the sun. It's the sun and the camera. 
 
21:33 - Alexis (Host)
True true, true. If someone wanted to do what you do, Anna, what piece of wisdom or advice would you give that person? 
 
21:45 - Anna (Guest)
Do you know what I love this question heaps. Really I love it, I love it. 
 
21:50 - Alexis (Host) 
It fills my cup every time I meet people and their answers. 
 
21:54 - Anna (Guest)
I love it, because, going all the way through high school and then through to finishing year 12, multiple times people like what are you gonna do? I'm like I want to be a photographer yeah, cool, but what else? No, that's all I'm gonna do, I just want to be a photographer. And then leaving school and then going to uni and doing a diploma of photography, people like what are you gonna do? I'm like I'm gonna be a photographer, what do you mean? They're like well, you gotta have a backup, and I never had a backup. I didn't have a backup because I felt like if I had a backup, I might have done the backup. So I just didn't want to have one. 
 
22:40
But I think, having, being somebody that wants to do something in a field that's not a nine till five, you're always going to have people like What are you going to do, though? What are you going to do? So I think for me, it's like if you want to do something, you can do it, but no one, you have to make yourself do it. No one's going to do it for you. If you want to do it, you just have to work a different job until you can make it work or do, but just yeah. I think you just have to block everyone else out and just do it. Work really hard. 
 
23:21
Remember when I went to uni, I was doing that five days a week. I worked at a restaurant six nights a week and then I worked at the surf shop on the weekends and so I had one night a week off. That was it. Yeah, and I did that for two years and everyone kept saying in that duration of that time, what are you going to do when you finish? I'm like I want to be a photographer. 
 
23:50 - Alexis (Host) 
Are you guys not hearing me?
 
23:52 - Anna (Guest)
This is what I'm going to do, and so it was. It was really hard and even like booking weddings in the beginning was really hard, but I knew that I could do it and I knew that that's all I wanted to do. 
 
24:02 - Alexis (Host) 
And then like you said it, it evolved and changed, yeah, and, and moved towards new things.
 
24:09 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah, definitely, since I had kids, like especially, I think I think having Harlow like it just changed what I wanted to do and I'm like I loved weddings and I loved it at the time. 
 
24:20
But then, having Harlow, I just realized how quickly babies change and I'm like I want to capture that. I want to capture that little bit of, you know, newborns. You've got four weeks to capture that because, because between five and six weeks they look entirely different. They're not a newborn anymore, then they're a baby, and then they're a toddler and then and I, yeah, so for me I was like I want to do that. I want to capture that little special moment and I think for parents that that bit goes as a blur, like you hardly remember that. You remember bits and pieces, but just to capture the details of, like, all the little things. I'm like I want to. I want to do that. I want to be the person that captures that little blur. 
 
25:08 - Alexis (Host)
I love it. Extra question, what resources would you recommend if someone wanted to develop their creative process like and do what you do? 
 
25:20 - Anna (Guest)
I think all the resources are different for, for every field that you work in, you know whether it's you know, being a photographer, being a tattoo artist, being a singer, being you know they're all, they're all going to be like a different thing that you need to tap into. I think that if you have something that you want to do, you just need to like, follow it yourself or find a tribe that's going to support you to do that and and go for it. You can jump on Instagram or Facebook and be so inspired by so many people that are doing good things and you're like I want to be that, I want to do that, and you're like, yeah, cool, do it. You know what I mean. I feel like these days, you can be inspired by anyone because you feel like you can do anything yeah. 
 
26:08 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah. If you could have someone else anyone come on to this podcast and answer these questions? Yeah, who would like to have on here and whY
 
26:29 - Anna (Guest)
Who would I choose? This one. I don't think I could answer it with like one person.
 
26:34 - Alexis (Guest) 
No, give me a few,
 
26:35 - Anna (Host) 
All right. So if I go with people that I personally know and that's where I'm going to go, yep, I think that Naphellel Watts from Saltwater Creative. 
 
26:47
She is an incredible artist, yep she also runs workshops for resin and pottery and, amongst other things, she's just. She's an amazing businesswoman and I think she's inspirational to so many people more than she knows. And so I think Naphelle would be amazing, and I also think that Zoe Doland who is also. I don't know if you're familiar with her art?
 
27:11 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah her artwork is stunning. 
 
27:15 - Anna (Guest)
I think she would be really fun to talk to as well. 
 
27:18 - Alexis (Host)
Good choices, yeah. Good choices. Anna, thank you so much for coming through the creative door, and being on the podcast. 
 
27:26 - Anna (Guest) 
Oh thank you, Alexis 
 
27:28 - Alexis (Host) 
It was such a joy. Loved it. Love you, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.