Through The Creative Door

11 | Listening To Your Creative Spark with Natalia Fidyka

In this episode, Alexis welcomes the talented Natalia, an artist and psychologist whose passion for creativity knows no bounds.
 
Following her artistic journey, from the enchanting vistas of the Pilbara that sparked her solo exhibition, to navigating the delicate balance of her roles as both therapist and artist, Natalia shares invaluable insights and experiences as a creative herself. She places great emphasis on the value of community, highlighting the importance of actively engaging with fellow creatives, both in person and through digital channels, as each individual has something different to contribute. 
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Natalia on instagram @nataliafidyka
 
This episode was recorded on 24 November 2023 on the lands of the Wajuk Peoples.We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
 
Creative references from Natalia:
Books; Rick Rubin - The Creative Act, Holly Ringland - The House That Joy Built
Online Courses: Flora Bowley https://florabowley.com/online-learning/
Course: The Life Cycle of a Creative Spark http://www.nataliafidyka.com/creative-spark.html
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
 
—---------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door.
 
00:49
Natalia, thank you so much for coming through the Creative Door or being on the podcast Through The Creative Door. I'm so excited to have you. 
 
00:58 - Natalia (Guest)
Thanks for having me. 
 
01:00 - Alexis (Host) 
Oh, my goodness, I heard your name actually through a previous guest on Through The Creative Door, Millie Taylor, who had raving reviews about you, not only about you as an artist and the phenomenal body of work that you do, but also she talked about how she went to one of your workshops and just got so much value add from that, and she was quoting you on the podcast, which was very lovely. So for those that are listening, I will be sharing those details for that workshop in the show notes, so watch this space, but also not only. I mean, we're multifaceted humans. You are a phenomenal artist I've still got you on socials, but you're also a psychologist as well, which is bloody amazing, yeah yeah, and a lot, I'm sure a lot. 
 
02:00 - Natalia (Guest)
Yeah, it's amazing. I love it, love them both. 
 
02:02 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah. So I guess this question that I'm going to ask first more so as an artist, but maybe it is about how you intertwine with your other job as well. But what does the creative space mean to you? 
 
02:20 - Natalia (Guest)
Good question. You know, I don't think anybody has ever asked me that before. 
 
02:25 - Alexis (Host)
I find that very hard to believe. Only because I would have thought that that would be because you talk about creative spark so much.  
 
02:36 - Natalia (Guest)
Yeah, well, okay, so let's see if I can try and answer it. So, creative space is, I think, a a place, but it's also a mindset, which I think you suggested that, um, in your earlier questions and I really liked the idea of the mindset is actually probably the most important thing for creating the creative space and I would say the mindset for that is entering into the space, whether it's the kitchen bench like you saw the chaos on my kitchen bench because it's been so hot in Perth I can't go into my studio. 
 
03:18 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, just for those listening off mic. We made a cup of tea in the kitchen and we needed to just move some of the paints off the kitchen bench just so I can find a little spot for my coffee. It's okay, makeshift, makeshift while there's a yeah, it's a heat wave in Perth at the moment.
 
03:48 - Natalia (Guest)
Actually you've reminded me that is something I do talk about, about having micro studios. Oh my god, I'm gonna be rambling. So let me go back to what I started, and that is the attitude that we turn up to any creative space is is really important, and for me that is turning up without a intention. As soon as I sort of go in like I'm going to create this piece of work, it ends up being a shit show. So turning up and just starting with, like letting myself get in gently and I do that by just doing whatever I feel like, even if it's just doing lines with a piece of charcoal or just colour swatching, like whatever it takes to get me in, and then the creative flow kind of takes off. And then I'm running and that's been very helpful for me and having micro studios sprinkled around my house. 
 
04:38
So I've got a big studio in the garage and that's where I have my little workshops, that's where I do all my big pieces of work. But sometimes it's too hot or there's people banging and building houses or you know whatever it is that's going on, or it's just simply too far, like I know that sounds, I mean, you know, terrible, but that going out my back door and opening the roller sometimes feels like it's too much, yeah. So I've got little micro studios sprinkled around the house and that's just like a few journals, some paints and pencils and it's there so that nothing gets in the way there. The less excuses and reasons for me to paint, the better, and proximity and immediacy is one of those things that's really important to me. 
 
05:36 - Alexis (Host)
A friend of mine used to say scattering musical instruments around the house was the best way, because you could just, instead of having to unpack a guitar from a case, you could just pick it up and play a couple of little bars, put it back down. Exactly, yeah, I think that's probably the same right?
 
05:54 - Natalia (Guest)
Exactly it. I used to live with a beautiful creative Sharoni and when she moved in I was like, so can we turn the kitchen, like dining table, into an art space? She was like, yeah, and so again, like you know we had, she had her half of the table and I had my half of the table and it was just there. And we'd wake up in the morning and often find one or the other just kind of doodling. 
 
06:18 - Alexis (Host)
You've been an artist for such a long time and will continue to be, yeah, so this is probably a difficult question to answer, but is there a piece of work or a body of work that you are proud of creating? 
 
06:36 - Natalia (Guest)
Yeah. 
 
06:37 - Alexis (Host)
And how did it come about? 
 
06:53 - Natalia (Guest)
Over covid, I ended up traveling up north a lot up to the Pilbara and I went up with a friend once and then I think I went up by myself and then I went up another time with Banji
 
07:05 - Alexis (Host) 
For those listening, Banji's this beautiful dog that's in this beautiful space with us. 
 
07:11 - Natalia (Guest)
Yes, little therapy dog and I had the privilege of spending some time with an Indigenous man up there and he took me to some really wild and special places and he gave me permission to collect some ochre and some rocks and when I came back I started making paint out of it. So I just crush it up and mix it with a bit of like an acrylic medium. 
 
07:47 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah. 
 
07:48 - Natalia (Guest)
And I ended up just making an exhibition Like I, just my first solo exhibition. I just locked and loaded it, didn't think about it too much, and then I just worked with all that inspiration and some of the pieces were really beautiful. I mean, all of them were cool, but the ones that were the most popular had the ochre in it, so, whether you could even see it, there's just some energy in the work that people could feel. And the exhibition was called Oasis because all through the Pilbara there's little oases. You know it's like red rock desert. You come down all these like stone roads and then suddenly it's like palm trees and ice cold water and it was just amazing. 
 
08:41 - Alexis (Host)
So spectacular places, incredible, I mean obviously in the world. But like W.A has some gems, we have gems. 
 
08:50 - Natalia (Guest)
Oh yeah, we have so many gems and I haven't even touched the surface yes, I mean, I just found a cool place in Riverton oh really, yeah. I took banjo for a walk this morning, for a swim, and it was the most stunning river and I've never been there. And I just found a beautiful gallery space in South Freo Early Work Gallery Amazing and they supported the whole process and it was just amazing. 
 
09:16 - Alexis (Host)
Congratulations, that sounds so beautiful. 
 
09:18 - Natalia (Guest)
It was stunning. Thank you. 
 
09:19 - Alexis (Host)
On the opposite side of something to be proud of, have you found anything that's challenged your creativity, and what do you think the major lesson, if there is one? 
 
09:38 - Natalia (Guest)
The things that I struggle the most with. It's pivoting between being a therapist and being a creative, and not that that is actually that different, but running the two, trying to run the two businesses. It's a lot of code switching and it feels like it would be easier if I could streamline everything into one. Sure, but I don't know if that will ever happen, because I love lots of things all the time, so my energy gets split over a lot of things and I'm coming to realise that organisation is helpful for that. 
 
10:25 - Natalia (Guest)
That's a new concept for me, I'm not known as a very organised person and you saw my kitchen benchtop. So yeah, I think that can be challenging sometimes and, like social media, you know it's such a love-hate thing. It's such a love-hate a love hate thing. Like I meet the most amazing people like you, and I've made some artist friends that I've never met in real life, it's incredible, um, but trying to work out the whole thing in post and and market and sell so you can keep moving, it's a lot
 
11:04 - Alexis (Host)
And it never feels like it ends.
 
11:07
Because it's always changing right. Yeah, like it's they're. They're always changing something, or you know the market gets saturated in this and so then people are bored of being sold to like that. So we go try new things, and so I think it's, I think it's mentally organizing myself is probably the hardest thing. 
 
11:30 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, I can empathize with that. I mean, it's small business at the end of the day and you have to wear all of those hats. It's really hard and you are your product. You know you're the face of the product whether that be either of the hats that you wear.
 
11:52 - Natalia (Guest)
Yeah totally. Yeah, it didn't even occur to me. But you're right, all the things like the graphic design and the content creation and the emails and. 
 
12:01 - Alexis (Host)
I'm going to wear my PA hat today. This afternoon I'm going to wear my manager hat and then get an accountant hat.
 
12:14 - Natalia (Guest)
Exactly, but you know what? Yeah, and that's a challenge. But it's also like how cool is it that we can do that? I was born in the 80s. If I wanted to have a website, I would have had to like get somebody to do that for me for thousands of dollars. Graphic design, like I couldn't have done any of that. And now I can do it all. 
 
12:31 - Alexis (Host)
That is a wonderful thing about technology is that it does. It's got smaller and more accessible and more cost effective, which means that you can do it all yourself in some way. But yeah, and then it's also that you can, which means that should I yes, I don't know. Sometimes I wonder if I should just outsource a lot of things. 
 
12:53 - Natalia (Guest)
Yes, which is something that I'm ready to do. Yeah, okay, and I have somebody fantastic I don't know if I can mention her name Krystal Hudson. She's doing my new Kajabi website. Oh 
 
13:09 - Alexis (Host)
Might get some more clientele. When you're creating, is there an object or something that you can't live without when you're creating?
 
13:37 - Natalia (Guest)
It's kind of a ritual that has an object. It's not as profound as you might. It's a cup for my coffee. And it's Amy McNee. She's like a creativity coach and she doesn't do merch anymore, but when she did and I saw this cup, I was like I have to have that cup and it's because it's a giant cup. It's not like this cup, it's like twice the size of this cup, because my morning coffee is huge. It's a bucket. And on it on it it says “we need your art”, like handwritten, like black, and it's like every morning, because I paint in the morning mainly, um, and it's just make the coffee, get the coffee cup, sit down, and it's there and it's constantly reminding me 
 
14:30 - Alexis (Host)
oh, I love that. It's cool, that's so great. I wonder if you had one piece of advice or a nugget advice. If you could give that to another creative, what would it be? 
 
14:52 - Natalia (Guest)
It would be to always listen to your, I call it the creative spark, but it could be the breadcrumbs, like what you're interested in, what your hunch is, because it's usually not usually it's. It's always the right way, because that's coming from inside you and it's like if you're interested in something or if you want to do like, spray pink over blue or whatever it is that you want, that impulse is coming from you and sometimes we judge it and we go, oh I, I couldn't possibly do that, that's weird or that's not enough, or what would people think if I do that thing, it's like that thing is your style, your soul print, it's your intuition. It's all you ever need to be really listening to in the creative process.  
 
15:43 - Alexis (Host)
Amazing. I love when I hear people's little nuggets of advice, because it always just fills my cup. Every time I'm like, yes, yes, Alexis, remember this. 
 
15:56 - Natalia (Guest)
It's simple, right, oh, but it's so complex because, as humans, we have so many interruptions to following our intuition, like through the entire creative process, you know. It's like where do I start? What am I interested in? Does it look good enough? It's like you've got so many like inbuilt judgments and um limiting beliefs and all this sort of stuff that gets in the way of doing something as simple as following my joy. 
 
16:28 - Alexis (Host)
 
and it's true, we do, there's all these external factors coming in. We always need to be able to come back to self, to being like what is authentic and true.
 
16:41 - Natalia (Guest)
That's inside, yeah, it's in my body. Yeah, it's not even in my head. That's all like conditioning belief systems. So what feels good in in the heart? You know like sometimes when I'm painting and it's like right on literally, I feel like euphoric, it's like a drug when you're in flow with the work and what you want to create. 
 
17:11 - Alexis (Host) 
Such a beautiful space, such a beautiful energy. So good. 
 
17:13 - Natalia (Guest)
It’s joy, yeah, it's, and it's um, like you can lose sense of yourself, and I think that's one of the components of being in the flow is that you're no longer self-aware, but you're kind of like just floating in bliss
17:28 - Alexis (Host)
eah, there for the ride. If anyone wanted to take a leaf out of your book and do what you do, is there any resources or books or references or things that you would suggest? 
 
17:45 - Natalia (Guest)
Yes, I have two. One is the artist who brought me back. Oh, I have so many actually. Okay, I got three. Flora Bowley she's an Oregon painter. She's been painting, doing I think she was like the first artist who did an online course oh, wow, yeah, she's beautiful and she does like intuitive art classes. So she got me back in. I think in my late 20s, after studying, I sort of kind of fell away, kind of fell away, so she got me back in. And then Rick Rubin has written an incredible book called the creative act. It's all about the creative process. And lastly but um, it's Holly Ringland has written a book called That House That Joy Built. She's incredible. You're going to fall in love with her. Oh, yes, and that is about from what I've read a little bit is it's about why we need to move through fear to create and that joy is a really good reason to create. 
 
19:07 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, I love that. 
 
19:08 - Natalia (Guest)
Yeah, so they're my three. 
 
19:12 - Alexis (Host)
What wonderful suggestions. Put them all in the show notes for everyone. Last question, if you could hear anyone else come on to the podcast and answer these questions, who would it be? 
 
19:26 - Natalia (Guest)
The person I have in mind is actually, I think, in South Australia, and where is she? Victoria, maybe she's in New South Wales? Her name's Holly Eva and she is quite a prolific artist and she does beautiful, colourful abstracts of like flowers and women. But the reason why I'd love to hear about her she has nailed like creative flow. She has made a business out of her art. Makes it look easy I'm sure it's not and she is so supportive of her creative peers like her and I've never met, but she reached out to me and just said some beautiful things about some of my work, really encouraged me through a particular phase, answered some questions that I had. She's just a really generous, creative, oh beautiful. And just wanted to shout out to Holly because she's been wonderful. 
 
20:34 - Alexis (Host)
How good is community? 
 
20:37 - Natalia (Guest)
I love it when people it's a funny thing, they're like gatekeeping of like information and I'm sure you know there's a time and a place for it. But I really value, like, if you, if you give them a slide in my dms and you want to ask me something, I'll answer it yeah and because I've had so many people do that for me and it's just been so helpful and you feel so much more supported and less alone. So yeah, I like that kind of world. 
 
21:08 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, and I think we do live in, myself, as a creative, I feel like I live in a space like that where you just have to ask yeah. Natalia, thank you so much for coming on Through The Creative Door. It's been so lovely chatting with you. 
 
21:25 - Natalia (Guest)
It was my pleasure, Alexis, beautiful chat. 

10 | The Journey Is The Best Part with Mark Turner

Get set for a shot of inspiration as multi-instrumentalist and vibe creator Mark Turner links up with Alexis on this juicy episode. They dive headfirst into a lively chat, with Mark sharing personal insights and anecdotes that offer a sneak peek into the dynamic world of his creative process. From his early days in session work to his original projects, Mark dishes on the importance of trying everything you can and being okay with the outcome, because there is bound to be another project on the horizon. 
 
Whether you're a musician, artist, or just someone who loves creating good vibes in your own way, this episode is bound to ignite your creative spark and reassure you that you're not alone on the wild journey of creativity.
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Mark on instagram @markturnermusic 
 
This episode was recorded on 23 November 2023 on the lands of the Wajuk Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
 
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
 
—---------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door.
 
Hello Mark Turner
 
00:50 - Mark (Guest)
Hello Alexis Naylor
 
00:51 - Alexis (Host)
How are you doing? 
 
00:54 - Mark (Guest)
I'm lovely, it's a busy time, but here we are. 
 
00:58 - Alexis (Host)
Well, thank you for coming and chatting to me through the Creative Door. 
 
01:03 - Mark (Guest)
Oh, the door is wide open. 
 
01:04 - Alexis (Host)
The door is wide open. Indeed, for those who don't know you, you are a very talented bear, does lots of things, multi-instrumentalist and doing recording things and singing things and tootie-tootie on the saxophones. 
 
01:21 - Mark (Guest)
Jack of all trades. Well that's the aim, jack, of all trades. Yes, well, that's the aim. That's the aim. I do the things that I enjoy, you do and try to do. It helps my ADHD brain. It's self-diagnosed. 
 
01:37 - Alexis (Host)
So, considering that you do so many different creative outlets, it's probably a hard question to ask. But what does the creative space mean to you? 
 
01:50 - Mark (Guest)
Well, great question, and it's ever evolving, Alexis.. Creative space I mean it's like a space can be a hotel room or a toilet or a car or, in some cases, your van when I've been in it. Long drives, when you're just by yourself and you're left with complete creative freedom. But also those spaces change, like one of the biggest things I always wanted was a creative space and then I got it and I used it a lot and then, you know, circumstances change and then the neighbour next door was in my creative space workshop. The neighbour next door started living there so I couldn't be creative, like when I was creative. I felt very exposed. So for me, creative spaces are vulnerable spaces where I feel safe to explore and try ideas and see where the world takes me. 
 
02:40 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, so that's obviously changed and evolved over time. 
 
02:45 - Mark (Guest)
Yeah, it's fully evolved and it's just a, it's just a lovely, it’s a lovely thing to be able to have one and also to be able to especially as a travelling musician and a travelling a lot I love travel so to be able to create a creative space or be somewhere and find that rhythm is cool, I really enjoy that. I feel very fortunate to have that ability to you know set up and be creative where I need to be. 
 
03:14 - Alexis (Host)
It's interesting because I think, well, maybe I'm projecting, but a lot of us would strive to have a studio or a creative space in that sense yeah, and then, when you get it, perhaps, like you said, definitely use it quite a lot, but then, like you, take it for granted almost.
 
03:34 - Mark (Guest)
Absolutely, I mean it's funny because I've had so that the space where questioning is it kind of fell about by accident. I was looking for somewhere to hold my, and harness my creativity, and it's the kind of thing. When I found it I was like this is I've found the gold mine. 
 
03:50
And it is, it is it is the gold mine and it was. It was when those circumstances changed, maybe four years into having it where there was, you know, the neighbour situation. It changed the silver lining for me, but then I've kept it because it's still. I know that the gold is there. So I feel extremely lucky to have that space and a space that I can call mine to create in. I think if anyone can find a way to make a space that is theirs, it's one of the most joyous things. But I had an experience recently and I believe they may be on your podcast. You might have to edit this out, but, Daine, has Daine been on your podcast? 
 
04:32
No, Cut cut paste. 
 
04:35 - Alexis (Host)
Are you telling me that I should have him on the podcast? 
 
04:39 - Mark (Guest)
Oh, he's a brilliant brain yeah, um, so Daine was in there recording recently and he came and he dropped the key back to me and he's like mate, that place is magic and it reinvigorated me, because a space is only as magical as it feels for you. So to see him experience that same magic that I felt, without any of the emotions being shifted because of past experience, it was just like that, is awesome and I love that he felt that and it reminded me of the magic that a place or a venue or a situation can feel. But it's okay to let things change and for that to shift. 
 
05:15 - Alexis (Host)
You're like, oh, I want to go back in there, I want to experience the thing. 
 
05:18 - Mark (Guest)
Absolutely. It was that kind of wow, this is actually a vibe. So I was like, wow.
 
05:24 - Alexis (Host)
I'm curious. I mean, you have been involved in so many ensembles. You have released lots of different music with different people. You've done lots of different projects. You've also been a videographer. Like you have been involved in so many things creative. 
 
05:48 - Mark (Guest)
Jack hammer of all jacks. 
 
05:49 - Alexis (Host)
Yes, yes, but I guess it's a hard question to ask Is there something that you're most proud of or is there a body of work? I know that seems like a real-loaded question, right? 
 
06:03 - Mark (Guest)
Is there something that I'm proud of? I'm constantly proud of, I'm constantly proud of everything that I've created. So, like I'm, I see things and I'm like, oh, I'm proud of that. I look back and reminisce and I'm super proud of the (whether it be music) or all of it. 
 
06:18
Yeah, I mean, uh, the thing that came to my mind recently was a Christmas album I did with Steve Hensby, and so Christmas is around the corner. I was like, oh yeah, I made a Christmas album once and I listened to the song. I was like God, it was just such a beautiful time and memory. And then Sam Timmerman, who is our dear friend, reshared a story of when we all lived together and we did some amazing things in COVID and it's like, wow, I'm so proud of what we achieved there. Jessie Gordon and myself just released an album and I'm super proud of that and it's just little things that I'm like along the journey you've just got to kind of like, there's moments like pat yourself on the back and go that was great, you did good, keep going, it's okay. 
 
07:00 - Alexis (Host)
And I don't know about you, but, and I don't know about you. But I find it's hard to do that sometimes. And it actually is a real conscious effort. Once you've finished a project, released it, put it out to the world. Well, this is how I feel anyway to actually take a minute and be like actually, yeah, I did a thing, yeah because you're so caught up, because you're caught on to the next thing, moving on to the next thing
 
07:25 - Mark (Guest)
And that is hard because you just, especially for my brain I'm here, there and everywhere, so to stop and take stock is a challenge, but yeah, I'm just stoked that I get to, I guess at the core of it is like how cool is it that we can create stuff in our lives and share them with others? 
 
07:47 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah. 
 
07:48 - Mark (Guest)
So that to me is I'm super. I guess at the core of it I'm proud to have a body of life that I get to share with others who also enjoy it. So you know, it's not just I guess it's hard to pinpoint any one thing, it's all of the bits. 
 
08:03 - Alexis (Host)
All of the bits in all of the things. Yeah, on the flip side of something proud, do you think that there's something that's challenged your creativity and if so, what was the major lesson? 
 
08:18 - Mark (Guest)
Something that challenged my creativity. The first thing that comes to my brain is remembering COVID as an entity and then coming back out of COVID, because you and I, Alexis, had a very different COVID to most people, where most people went quite inside and quiet and found their own space and did what they did we want. We turned our house into essentially a nightclub slash music venue, which I'm incredibly proud of. 
 
08:51
But it was the kind of thing where it became this creative, uh, mega space and all nothing was off limits. So that to me, was the first time. I was like whoa. I haven't felt freedom like this in years. So it was this really like no one was. I didn't have to be, and I guess in a lot of ways, I don't have to be accountable. I'm accountable for every decision I make, but in that moment I was in control of every decision that I was making for me and us musically. 
 
09:19
And then, when the world switched back on in Perth specifically, it was so intense with the amount of work we had, the amount of well, we just had to get back on with it, because that's what I was programmed to do and it was a really challenging mindset to go. But you had the best time of your life in this window of creativity and you've now, basically, you were in neutral, the engine was going, everything was cool and then in COVID, we switched the engine off and relaxed and now not only is the engine on, we're like on sixth gear. Full speed ahead. 
 
09:55
We're on the Kwinana Freeway, pelting down to somewhere who knows. 
 
10:01 - Alexis (Host)
Wait, surely there's a faster..
 
10:05 - Mark (Guest)
Yeah, maybe Brand Highway, who knows? Yeah, Kwinana Freeway is definitely not the right analogy, but you know what I mean Great Southern Road or something, caning it down the freeway and it's like whoa, that was hard because I was like, oh, I am burning myself at every candle. I basically got six candles, which I also do enjoy, but it’s alot.
 
10:28
So I was just like whoa, this is crazy, crazy, so I don't know that, that to me was challenging, and it's still a challenge to consider what that looks like 
 
10:40 - Alexis (Host)
what do you think the major lesson is there, though, like how do you come through from that? 
 
10:43
Well, I'm not learning from that. I'm not listening to my own heart, but I guess the lesson is is to allow space for creativity, and it's something that that I've tried to do with Jessie in terms of our writing and our time. We create time to be creative and just booking in me time, which is so hard to do, it's so hard to dedicate time for you, for yourself. So, as I sit here preaching about something that I don't do, I'm going to analyze that and think more about my life choices but ultimately, it's a balance right it's all just a balance.
 
11:23
I love everything that I get to do, so I love the work that I get to do. It's so varied and exciting, but there is also, the challenge is finding the balance to be me and produce my own me to the world that they can see. Um, but I guess you know, yeah, exactly what I said. There's me in everything that I'm currently doing, but there's also the other me that wants to maybe create and do more freedom-based things that we had in that period. 
 
11:56 - Alexis (Host)
You definitely get I don't want to say pigeonholed, but like it's easy when we're already in those lanes to then just keep going down those paths without re-imagining. It takes a lot of effort to reimagine something, I think. 
 
12:11 - Mark (Guest)
Yeah, absolutely, and it's also. I mean, we've got to earn money, at the end of the day, you've got to exist, and that, to me, is the core of it, like, okay, we've got to just do that, but then also there's, you know, we've got to make space for all these things. 
 
12:27 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, to let the creativity out. Let it out, let it out. 
 
12:30 - Mark (Guest)
Let it out, be free. 
 
12:36 - Alexis (Host)
Is there any object or possession that you can't live without when you're creating. Like something sentimental or something like super..
 
12:49 - Mark (Guest)
Oh yeah, they're all tools. Yeah, I mean my saxophone's pretty sentimental, but even if someone told me they melted it down into a cupcake or something, or like a teacup, I'd be like, oh that's really weird, why would you do that? And then I'd just go and find another saxophone. 
 
13:04 - Alexis (Host)
That was my saxophone, but okay, yeah, why'd you do that? 
 
13:07 - Mark (Guest)
I love my acoustic and electric guitar, but you know they're wood and I'm very attached to them and they're mine, but at the end of the day it's a tool that helps me create and be. I reckon I'd be lost without my friendships. I think that is the things that you can't, that would be, they're probably the most important things. 
 
13:31 - Alexis (Host)
Okay. 
 
13:31 - Mark (Guest)
The things that if I lost those I'd be pretty sad. But for me, everything I mean you know data. Data is make sure you back up your content in three places, or those that doesn't exist, that you know, but then if you've got it three places, it does exist, so it's fine. But data you know, like memories, content, that those are the things that once you've created something. 
 
13:58 - Alexis (Host)
Making sure you've got it everywhere. 
 
13:59 - Mark (Guest)
Make sure you don't lose it. But yeah, there's nothing that springs to like, if the house was burning right now and I had to grab something, I mean I'd grab my laptop because it's got all the data on it. The laptop is just a tool. I'd probably grab my saxophone and my acoustic and my electric guitar, my memory box. Oh God, you, just you know. These are the order of. 
 
14:19 - Alexis (Host)
You need a container to take all the things before the fire gets in. 
 
14:27 - Mark (Guest)
Well, I bought fireproof boxes, so everything is hopefully nothing, touch wood. No pun intended about the wood, but yeah, I mean, I love my vinyl collection. That would be really hard to replace. There's a lot there and it's come from all over the world. But yeah, nothing that, I'm just trying to think what's in there? No, it's all just stuff. But I love stuff. 
 
14:44 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, but you can create you can start again. 
 
14:50 - Mark (Guest)
I mean, I had a moment the other day my friend who I'm teaching I gave a few lessons to on the saxophone and her name is Fernanda and she's moved down south and she's just starting her musical journey and I had a spare keyboard piano controller. I was like, you should take this. And she's like Mark, my world has exploded, everything has changed and it's like one thing that I didn't even use anymore, like I've got pianos everywhere. I just and for her it's like changed her life and it's just one little thing, it’s like, you know, they're just tools to help you get to unlock doors no, also lso, maybe this piano accordion. I got that when I was a kid. I'd be pretty sad if I lost that
 
15:36 - Alexis (Host)
As in, someone gifted it to you? 
 
15:37 - Mark (Guest)
Well, no I purchased it, it was one of my first instruments that I was learning 
 
15:43 - Alexis (Host)
oh, really, yeah, but I I how old were you? 
 
15:46 - Mark (Guest)
Oh, 10, 11. 
 
15:47 - Alexis (Host)
And that was what you chose at 10? 
 
15:48 - Mark (Guest)
Well, I chose the piano. I wanted to be a rock and roll piano-er, but I was pretty bad at it. I was pretty shit at piano. 
 
15:57
But the guy who taught me also learned piano accordion. So we yeah, that was I had to get, and my grandfather played piano accordion, so I started on his and then we found this one and then, you know, hit 12 and found the saxophone and then put the piano accordion back in its case. But I've ended up using it a few times recently in recordings. And you know, weird, I played in a Billy Joel tribute band. That was weird. Yeah, it is vibe, but you know, sentimentality is. Yeah, that's a great question. I like it. I take my friends with me. If the house is burning, you and me go to the pub. After we put the fire out. 
 
16:36 - Alexis (Host)
eah, yeah, yeah, we'll try it at least. If you could give one piece of advice, one nugget of gold to another creative. What would it be? 
 
16:54 - Mark (Guest)
Oh God, there's so many, Mum always said everything in moderation. 
 
16:57 - Mark (Guest)
But, that's not advice. No, the first thing that pops into my head is it's fine, it doesn't, there's, like whatever happens will happen and whatever the journey is, it's going to be fine. And I think I get so caught up worrying. I remember when I was 30, I was like I'm done, my time's over. I was 35. I'm like I'm done. I'm 35. Who cares? No one's going care and I'm like what happens, my hair goes gray and I lose them. Who cares? It doesn't matter. Like everyone's gonna be with you on the journey and no one goes to experience art to have a bad time. Everyone always goes out to have a good time. 
 
17:35
So, like, take the pressure off yourself and it will work out and it's so hard to, and I mean this is I'm internalizing my feedback, saying it doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter If you, if you do you know, we start a project, you don't finish it. It doesn't matter, it's okay,
 
17:52 - Alexis (Host)
It's also okay to pick it back up years later. 
 
17:58 - Mark (Guest)
Yeah. It's, but it's, it's. It's so internally hard to. There's just so much pressure in this world and my favourite thing is when I meet someone and I can just tell that their steam valve is off. There's no more steam, they're just relaxed. I'm like, oh, that looks like a nice time. Where's my steam valve? Maybe it's in my butthole. 
 
18:20 - Alexis (Host)
How do I turn it off? 
 
18:21 - Mark (Guest)
How do I release all this steam? How do I do it? But that's also part of what makes me me, so I wouldn't change that part of it. But I think it's just relaxing in the journey and it's like you can get caught up on so many parts of this life and it's like the journey is the part that is the best bit, the adventure, and it doesn't matter, just keep going, keep enjoying, keep doing whatever it is, and if it doesn't work, it's fine. 
 
18:48 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, try something else yeah. 
 
18:51 - Mark (Guest)
And, at the end of the day, whatever you've done and whatever you've created, it's amazing. Even if it's just your mum that likes it, that's fine. My mum does like it. 
 
19:01 - Alexis (Host)
I was just about to say how great are mums my mum always likes it too, 
 
19:26 - Mark (Guest)
Yeah so we're very, very lucky,
 
19:10 - Alexis (Host)
We are very lucky to do what we do. Would you have any advice on like resources or books or I don't know podcasts. Any references if someone wanted to, I don't know do what you do yeah. 
 
19:29 - Mark (Guest)
Well, if you do want to do what I do. 
 
19:33
Well, I mean, I'm an interesting case study in that I struggle with certain kinds of education. I've taught myself most of the things I know, but, you know, the biggest lesson that I've ever learned is by watching others and being around people who are very good at what we do. I'll never forget being in a room I don't know just started learning. I learned guitar when I was 14. And I think when I joined Adam Hall's band I was 21. And he asked me, invited me, to go on tour with a guy called Big Jay McNeely, who is no longer with us. But he was this killer honk and sax. He was like the definition of honk and sax, Like he was this old cat. He had his first hit in 1949, and Adam had brought him over to tour Australia. And we're sitting in the hotel room. I've just met Big Jay, he's sitting on the bed with his saxophone that's cut, painted fluoro orange. I'm like who is this dude? 
And he puts the sacks to his mouth and he honks a note louder than uh, if the heavens opened up and a saxophone appeared and started playing. It was louder than that and all of us in the room, except Adam, who'd heard him before like whoa, holy shit, balls like. This guy played so loud and it was so clear and so much passion in one note. I was like, oh my, we are serious. And so we started playing and I was playing guitar and he's and, and this Big J just knew what he wanted. He's like to the dominant, go to the dominant man. I was like what is a dominant? I wouldn't know a dominant if it slapped me in the face and I was like I don't know and Adam's like, just go to the C. 
He was helping me. I was like I don't know what this means. 
 
21:15 - Mark (Guest)
And so we're playing and Big J was just saying things and Adam was helping me. It was amazing, but it was one of those moments like you've got to learn fast there's, you've got to get your butt into gear, and it was one of those moments like I learned more in a 40 minute rehearsal than I did in the last six years of playing guitar. 
 
21:31
The six years had led to that moment for sure it had the, but it was, it was in that moment that my ass got handed to me and it was in that moment and I I there are vivid moments of my life. I remember recording my first ever. I was playing drums, recording and Kieran Candores, I was 17. I was playing with an ensemble. We were making a Christmas album. I don't know why I can't drink Christmas albums, but I was 17. 
 
21:55
I remember Kieran setting up the mics on my drum kit and he's an incredible engineer here in Perth and he put these mics in place and I was watching him and I was like, why did you do that? Why did you do that? And he was so kind, he told me all this information and I went out. It was the next five years. I bought every single mic that he put on that drum kit. I learned every single thing that he did and it changed my life. I remember going to watch Trevor Jeller. The first time I saw someone play guitar live, it was Howie Morgan and Trevor Jeller and these guys are so cool. I remember being underage, going to the Universal Bar and just being like, oh my God, that's what I want to do. 
 
22:31
You know it's those moments of like deep connection, watching, sucking every piece of knowledge from that experience and then learning how, like almost reverse engineering, just geeking out, yeah and now we're so lucky to have youtube and you can you can watch, you the people you admire on the internet now, like that, and it's like you can learn this stuff. But getting hands-on with the people that inspire you or that you learn from, is the people that inspire you or that you learn from is, I think, hands down. It happened to me the other week, James Newhouse recorded our Jesse and I's new duo album and we wanted to have him mix it, so I went down and sat with him and it was just like six hours of hang. But I think I learned more in six hours than I have in two years. 
 
23:18 - Mark (Guest)
Same with saxophone. I've been playing sax my whole life. I don't know what I'm doing. I had lessons as a kid. I had one lesson with Matt Stiles, who's one of the lead lecturers at UWA, I think, or WAAPA, and we sat and we had one hour lesson and he kind of was like, just play a scale. And he was like, okay, I see what you're doing, but have you tried doing this? And he said one thing that just changed everything and I was like I'm gonna have to go away for a year and understand what you just said. 
 
23:47
And it took me a year to work on it and it was like it's like little moments like that. All it takes is a little. You know, yeah, 180 degrees, flip it upside down and look at it in a different way, and you're like, holy shit, that changed my life. Um, and for those playing along at home, it was just, you know, open your like, drop your larynx, drop everything and allow the air to just go power through. I was like, whoa, that explains that's why I can't play saxophone. Now I can. Thanks Matt Stiles. You know little things like that. You're like, holy, shit. Blows your brain. You're like, oh, I never thought of that. 
 
24:24 - Alexis (Host)
Love it. One last question. if you could hear anyone answer these questions on the podcast. 
 
24:30 - Mark (Guest)
Who would it be? I, I mean my, the people that I really look up to. Like James Newhouse is a great example. He's such an interesting fellow and so inspiring. I'd love to hear his thoughts on these questions. Yeah, people that I look up to is, find all them and ask them all these questions, because then I can learn more. 
 
24:47 - Alexis (Host)
Big list. 
 
24:49 - Alexis (Host)
My goodness Mark Turner. 
 
24:51 - Mark (Guest)
Alexis. 
 
24:52 - Alexis (Host)
Thank you so much for being here and coming through the creative door. 
 
24:57 - Mark (Guest)
Oh, I enjoyed being in the door of my own house, the creative space of love, arigato gozaimasu. It's been an absolute joy. Bye. 
 
25:10 - Alexis (Host)
Bye. 

09 | You Can’t Be Lazy If You Want To Make Really Good Art with Terry Hart

Dive into the dynamic world of creativity with host Alexis Naylor as she sits down with Terry Hart, a Melbourne to Perth producer, mixer, composer and creative writer. 
 
Terry shares his fascinating journey navigating the intricate balance between technical prowess and emotional resonance in creative spaces. From his experience at Melbourne’s Sing Sing Studios to his own space, Terry has spent many years honing his craft as a producer and as a session player and explores the challenges and triumphs of being on both sides. 
 
From the pitfalls of over-reliance on technology to the power of experimentation and authenticity, Terry's wisdom offers a roadmap for unlocking one's creative potential. Talk about inspiring! 
 
Whether you're a seasoned artist or an aspiring creator, this episode of 'Through the Creative Door' promises to inspire and enlighten you, inviting you to embark on your own journey of artistic discovery.
 
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Terry on instagram @maestroman
 
This episode was recorded on 22 November 2023 on the lands of the Wajuk Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
 
Creative references from Terry:
Course: The Sound Academy - Simon Moro www.academyofaudio.edu.au 
 
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
 
—---------------------------
 
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door.
Hello, how you going? 
 
00:52 - Terry (Guest)
I’m good. 
 
00:54 - Alexis (Host)
Nice to have you here
 
00:58 - Terry (Guest)
Thank for inviting me
 
01:00 - Alexis (Host)
Thanks for letting me come into your creative space. Yeah, that's all right. I am so chuffed that you said yes to chatting with me because, I mean, I was an admirer of yours from afar before I even met you, before we even got to record and do things together. And then that was many moons ago. And now you're suddenly from the east coast over on the west coast. 
 
01:16 - Terry (Guest)
I came here for you, 
 
01:20 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, stop it! Well, well, now we'll have to book all these things in and we'll have to do lots of projects together. Yes!
 
01:24 - Terry (Guest)
Can't wait
 
01:27 - Alexis (Host)
I'm so excited. But thank you so much for coming on through the creative door. I wanted to have a chat to you because one you are just a multi-talented human being and have a brilliant mind and I'm curious, obviously you've graced me with the ability to come into your studio that you have here, but also the assumption that this is the only creative space that you have is probably not correct. 
 
01:53 - Terry (Guest)
Well at the moment kind of is. I'm new to town so this is what I've got. 
 
02:00 - Alexis (Host)
You brought it with you. But what does a creative space mean to you? Do you think? 
 
02:10 - Terry (Guest)
It's a very hard thing to get right and I've worked in lots of different studios over the years and the gear, the bits and pieces it's all great, but they're all tools to do a job. One of the things that a lot of studios fail in is what you're talking about is a creative space, um. One I used to work out a lot in Melbourne was Sing Sing studios and that always felt like a home. Kai and Jude that ran. It felt like like this amazing aunt and uncle and they're always there to take care of you and there was always this really good vibe. 
 
02:38
The rest of it's kind of superfluous if you're not comfortable to to create to make things um, especially when you're recording, because that's a that's a high. Comfortable to to create to make things um, especially when you're recording, because that's a that's a high um stress environment. You know a lot of people have saved for years to have a recording studio for a week. So you have to perform and um I know you've been there you jump on stage. If you're stressed it doesn't work like you really need to be in the right headspace to perform. So having a space that does that and allows you to do that, allows you to get into like uh, you know, like a flow state and really, um, enjoy the creation process, is is it's it's owed a lot more credit than it probably gets credit for so true, though, because I have definitely been in spaces over the years where, yeah, it was. 
 
03:26 - Alexis (Host)
I mean, you just walk in and there's a particular energy and suddenly, yeah, everything that you do is like under a microscope. 
 
03:35 - Terry (Guest)
And that's probably not good. No, like that cold, that sterile thing. 
 
03:41 - Alexis (Host)
And you wonder why you can't perform in a particular. It's like oh, I had this yesterday. 
 
03:49 - Terry (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, I can't do it. Had it yesterday. You've probably played it a hundred times on stage and had it, but, like when it matters, where we at, where's it gone? 
 
03:55 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, no, that's very true. That's very true. I'm curious. I mean, you have worked on so many projects, but you've also done a lot yourself, personally. I wonder and this is such a loaded and difficult question to ask but is there one bit of work or a body of work that you're most proud of today? 
 
04:19 - Alexis (Host)
I can work backwards. I can say I love making music, but I hate making my own music because it's a very lonely process. I like getting to the end. I am so intrigued about this, do tell me more what?
 
04:29 - Terry (Guest)
I work with bands and I get them in there. I try to give them this experience and they they say they want something and I have to try to figure out exactly what that is and get them there and things will break and things won't go wrong. And I keep that to myself and I figure out how to do that to make sure that they get that really positive experience. So we're talking about like the vibe in the studio, that homely feel and you're always nice and comfortable. I don't get that when I do my own stuff. It's just I'm filled in all the issues and trying to be creative. So I find it really really, really difficult and as far as I know, I'm not alone with that a lot of people who try to do a similar thing. It's a very difficult thing to balance. 
 
05:14 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, that's so true. Do you think that, will you always be having that hat on when you're in the studio doing your own, or could you potentially
 
05:29 - Terry (Guest)
Yeah, I haven't yet. Usually, when I've been doing my own stuff, it's been um after hours and just sort of I've got a bit, I've got a moment, so let's, let's give it a go. 
 
05:39
I hadn't got. I haven't gone to the lengths of sort of investing in that side of things, because there's a saying in my industry you got to decide which side of the glass you're on, and I did make my decision 10, 15 years ago. And, and I love producing music and and living in studios and being up to the wee hours trying to create something. Doesn't mean that I don't want to occasionally just just sneak across to the other side of the glass and see what's going on. 
 
06:08 - Alexis (Host)
Well, that, I'm sure, was your first love. 
 
06:13 - Terry (Guest)
Yes, yeah, that's what. I started off as a session musician. So I was on the other side of the glass playing, you know, piano and guitars and backing vocals and then violins and things like that on records when whatever people needed. That's how I got my foot in the door. But then, yeah, learn to love the rest of it slowly. 
 
06:31 - Alexis (Host)
We've spoken about something that you're proud of, but I also think on the on the flip side of that, do you think that there's been anything that has challenged you in creating or helping create a product with others? 
 
06:46 - Terry (Guest)
Again, there's always technical issues, but it's mostly communication. I think you'd find that most artists don't 100% know what they want and a lot of people see that as like a bad thing. But it's not. It is a like they know what they don't like more to as opposed to what they do. So that makes it a very difficult journey. So communication is always the biggest challenge, to try to figure that out, because it'd be great if you sit in the studio and go, okay, we've got this song, let's do a folk version, let's do a thrash metal version, let's do a, you know, an industrial rock version. Try everything and see which one works. But that's not very practical when it comes down to budgets and things like that. So getting into their heads, with obscure questions, you know I've been mixing for people and I've asked them like, if you were listening to this song, do you think it's orange or blue, like anything like that. It sounds silly but it kind of. 
 
07:44
It makes them think in an abstract form and it gives you something abstract to work from and that stuff can really hel, so communication is really always the challenge in the job because you're trying to translate a vision from nothing, which is it's an endlessly complicated job if you're actually trying to do it by chance. 
 
08:08 - Alexis (Host)
Would you have any advice? Is there things that you, if you could say to someone coming in, like before you come in? Maybe think of this kind of descriptive words or reference tracks. 
 
08:24 - Terry (Guest)
I do often. Yeah, I'll send like a questionnaire, especially if I get, if I get a sense of the project um, certain jobs, I'll sit with the bands in the rehearsal studio and we'll really nut it out. We might be doing that for months by the time we go into the studio, and usually by then and I do say usually, sometimes sometimes not at all, but usually by then we're on the same page. You've got a pretty good idea of what's going on. But otherwise those questions can be really helpful. Also, no musician ever wants to be asked what genre is your music. No artist wants to be asked that. 
 
08:59 - Alexis (Host)
So funny. I hate that question. Why do we all still ask this? 
 
09:02 - Terry (Guest)
Because we don't want to think like we're making something in the box. Otherwise, why would you be an artist? If we wanted to work like in the box, we'd go be a merchant banker and just call it a day. 
 
09:13 - Alexis (Host)
So true, but why do we all still ask that question? 
 
09:17 - Terry (Guest)
That's the thing. It's not about trying to make something like that, it's just like a guide in light. It tells me a lot if you want to make like a uh, independent sounding pop thing like Sia. I know you don't want to be Sia, but if you told me that it would just give me this world of palettes to open up in as far as instruments and things, um, it's just. It's just helping us do the job. So my best piece of advice is when somebody asks you that question, it's not, it's not a blight, it's literally because we're trying to help you. 
 
09:49 - Alexis (Host)
You're like yeah, I'm helping my brothers and sisters out
 
09:55 - Terry (Guest)
And I'm no better, if somebody asks me what genre my music is, I'll tell them to get out. There's the door. 
 
10:00 - Alexis (Host)
I don't know if this is going to be the right question to ask. We'll see. I feel like you're going to have lots of answers for this one, but is there any object or thing that you can't live without when you're creating? 
 
10:24 - Terry (Guest)
Honestly probably my dog. Yeah, yeah. 
 
10:31 - Alexis (Host)
Well, I mean for those people on the, you know listening. I got a lovely welcome when I came today from your beautiful dog. 
 
10:39 - Terry (Guest)
You're probably still sodden from licks and things like that.
 
10:45 - Alexis (Host)
 Yeah, I got all of the kisses. No, I love that. Do you think, especially because you're in this space, in the studio, for long periods of time and working on things for so long, yeah, do you think that is like? I think, like a, not a prerequisite, but a very healthy
 
11:05 - Terry (Guest)
No, but something like that. It goes back to what we were talking about before with the studios that I've seen at work are not the sterile clean line things, they're the ones that have got that homely feel. Now I've taken my dog to an insane number of sessions and I've seen this little ball of fluff, sort of devour, the negativity in the room, and sometimes there's arguments, sometimes there's confrontations between band members or whomever, and the dog's really, really good at breaking that down and bringing, like it's, a positive vibe in the studio. If you're looking for that, there's not really a better advocate for that. But look, I do. I make music for myself, for others, I work as a novelist, a writer, a fair bit as well. She's the only common denominator and I love having her around like, yeah, whether it has any difference, I don't know. 
 
11:56 - Alexis (Host)
I love that. She's the support dog for everybody. Yeah, exactly. 
 
12:01 - Terry (Guest)
I've seen it work. I swear. 
 
12:02 - Alexis (Host)
What else do you do with your writing? 
 
12:06 - Terry (Guest)
I've been doing creative writing for a good like you know, getting close to 10 years now. I used to write for magazines and things mostly about audio gear and things like that reviews but always had a passion for that, so I've been nutting out of that. I released one novel but I've been working on a bunch and just seeing what I can get to wear at the moment. I just really enjoy the process of that. I released one novel but I'm just I've been working on a bunch and just seeing what I can get to wear at the moment. I just really enjoy the process of that and it's different for me. 
 
12:34
Um, there's a bit of pressure because of what I do. If I wanted to make music, I love making music, but when I make my own it's hard for me to get out of that. That's a whole new Avenue for me. Like I'll admit to you now I do like being creative. I might have a little bit of a soft spot for it, but that's like a nice outlet for me which isn't what I'd call my profession, at least not at the moment. 
 
13:05 - Alexis (Host)
But I think if we've got that little spark of creativity in us, it manifests in so many different ways.
 
13:11 - Terry (Guest)
Oh, I don't think it matters. Yeah, got that little spark of creativity in us. Yeah, like, yeah, yeah, if you, if you, you can, either um tap into that flow state or you can't, but where you take it doesn't matter. Yeah, um, the rest of it's uh, a matter of practicg getting good at whatever you're doing. It, um, yeah, but it's, it's a great, it's a great outlet and allows me to get that uh, to get into that state and uh and also be vulnerable. 
 
13:32
There was a time there was a long time there that I was making records for other people and I did very, very little for myself and it's very easy to get, um, maybe jaded or maybe just a little bit loose sight of what the creative process is. Didn't mean I wasn't good at the job, but what it did mean is it made it hard to sympathize with the artist. So if I have something like that, I can kind of be there, be vulnerable, know what it means to someone when they give you criticism. Um, you know constructive criticism, but still know that that's it still is going to hit you in a certain way because you really are bearing yourself and being very vulnerable and, um, I think doing that on on the side makes me a lot better at at uh, yeah, just listening to what an artist has to say and respecting it, because, um, it can be hard, um to to really be there 100% and sympathise with people you work with, but, yeah, it's helpful for that. 
 
14:34 - Alexis (Host)
But also for yourself, as in it's multifaceted how it gives back and feeds back into you as a creative. 
 
14:42 - Terry (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, I'm definitely only speaking in a sense of what I do here, but I love doing it. 
 
14:50 - Alexis (Host)
If you could give a nugget or a piece of advice to another creative, what would it be? 
 
14:57 - Terry (Guest)
Oh, that's a hard one, get a dog, I guess. 
 
15:01 - Alexis (Host)
Get a dog. I'll write that down, yeah. 
 
15:04 - Terry (Guest)
The first thing that comes to mind is technology is not your friend and it's made so many things convenient, but it's also really pushed people's heads a little bit out of what's important, and it really is. If you can sit there with an acoustic guitar and make another human being cry with a song you made, that's all that matters. So there's a tendency to want to get into the studio and mess with sounds, and when I say studio, I mean people have. 
 
15:33
it's remarkable what people can do on their laptops you know, but jumping into that too soon and forgetting about the rest of it, because those endless choices have meant that people actually make less choices. Generally, the choices are kind of almost made on their behalf with a lot of the software 
 
15:48 - Alexis (Host)
To try and keep into a particular aesthetic or sound. 
 
15:58 - Terry (Guest)
Yeah things like it can be as simple as tempo. They just oh well, I will start, I'm going to start writing this song and they put their click on and put a drum beat you know, an artificial drum beat down, but then that artificial drum beat won't have swing. So they lose the idea that that song, the way they were playing the acoustic guitar, did have a tiny amount of swing. They don't have a, you know, and so your drummer's not going to hear that and react to that. And suddenly you've written this different song. 
 
16:21
It's so easy to lose the tiny little details that make something special. Um, so cause I, because I see a lot of. I'd have a lot of students when I did a lot of sessions back in Melbourne and they'd say bring a piece of gear up it's just like a program plug-in, say for a compressor or something and they'll mess with the knobs and try to make this sound work, even though it's not really working. And they've got endless different ones that a click of a button, but then they stick on one and get stuck on it. 
 
16:56
Now, when I was working on huge analog studios, I'd listen to something that wasn't right. I'd walk all the way over to the other end of the thing, pull out the wires that had patched it in, plug in new wires and try a new thing, like that was just a habit you had. Yeah, now it's easier to do that today than it's ever been. It's a click of a button and people do it less. So it's kind of. Technology is very good at making people lazy, but you can't be lazy if you want to make really good art. 
 
17:23 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, my goodness. That's so true. 
 
17:26 - Terry (Guest)
And you've been in the studio a fair bit, I'm sure you've been in those situations. Have you ever sat there looking for a synth sound to fill in a thing and you're just going through preset after preset after preset just trying to find that sound? 
 
17:38 - Alexis (Host)
Yes. 
 
17:41 - Terry (Guest)
It kind of. At some point you're just like a scene through time. You don't even know what's going on, right, you get that kind of moment where you lose that, yeah, yeah you lose space time context yeah, yeah, and it's overwhelming. 
 
17:54 - Alexis (Host)
And I'll be honest, like I don't have trained ears like you, so like for me, sometimes they all. Then suddenly all just I don't even know where I am. They all sound the same they just start blurring. Yeah, they're all blurring, whereas I think your ears would be far more in tuned for longer to be able to hear the finite difference between but even a lot of times, it just doesn't matter yeah. 
 
18:22 - Terry (Guest)
The big thing: is you're not making music to make it to like, you're not writing a song to find the perfect canvas for a perfect synth sound. You're looking for a synth sound to express a certain emotional state. That's all music is. It's a cathartic experience. People listen to it to feel something. So if you start listening to those synths and saying which one sounds like, my partner just left me. If that's what your song is about, you know it sounds. But um, that's a big part of what, what, what happens in these places there's. You get a bunch of sounds together. There's a little bit of work to make a snare drum sound like a snare drum, an acoustic guitar sound like an acoustic guitar. Once that's done, you've just kind of hit the bass line of beginning the. Then you've got to start to make the acoustic guitar sound like it's been hurt by some trauma or it wants to dance or it's, you know, whatever, whatever. 
 
19:18 - Alexis (Host)
Whatever the emotion is that we're trying to portray. 
 
19:22 - Terry (Guest)
 I need a thesaurus, I'm bragging about being a creative writer and I can't even think of more than two emotions. Like how are we going here? 
 
19:29 - Alexis (Host)
We need to watch that movie. It has all the emotions. 
 
19:32 - Terry (Guest)
Yes, that would be a great idea. It wasn't the elementals. I know the one you're talking about. Pixar right, yeah, Pixar, Pixar for the win always.
 
19:38 - Alexis (Host)
That's so true. No, I, it's all about sometimes finding that balance of, like, stripping it every back, stripping it all back to, yeah, the fundamentals, for sure, um, and yeah, it's lovely to have toys, it's lovely to have, yes, like you said, an opportunity to create in that particular way, but it should be supporting the message or the, the thing that we're trying to. 
 
20:12 - Terry (Guest)
Yeah, yeah absolutely yeah, and that that's the only thing to keep in mind, that it is supporting that um and that's the question just to keep asking yourself. 
 
20:21
Paul Mccartney put it really well. He said um, he was talking, I think, specifically about backing vocals. Okay, but I think it works across the board for production. Um, he said that, um, if it's not adding, it's taking away. So you can put in endless vocal harmonies if you want, but you just listen to it and go. Is that adding? And if it's not, if you can barely hear it or whatever, just scrap it, it's probably taking away then. Yeah, it's a good mentality and a good thing to keep in mind in every decision you do. Because, yeah, we can get into the studio and decide that we're going to spend half a day on finding the perfect snare drum I've got 40 snare drums here. We're going to find the one that really suits this song but if in that time, the whole band just loses energy and can no longer be bothered even performing the song and are tired and are hungry, then snare drum sound didn't really matter at t that point you know you've got nothing 
 
21:22 - Alexis (Host)
It's not really going to uh, put the electric energy back into everyone yeah, yeah yes, we found the sound . Would you, is there any resources or, like I don't know, books or courses or something like if you, if someone was wanting to um, do what you do? Is there there anything that you know, good resources that you would suggest? 
 
21:56 - Terry (Guest)
There's kind of endless resources. I know a mate of mine, Simon Morrow, in Melbourne, he's doing an online course for music production and he and I talk a lot about music production. He's got a great ear for that, so I trust what he's saying in that. But, at the same point, youtube is filled with things you want to figure out how to patch a hole in the wall. It's got you covered. 
 
22:24
It's not much different with music production. There's a lot of bits and pieces on that, but it's the same as anything. Sure, it's not sponsored and, um, in the sense that you're kind of getting an honest review, not just a sponsor, um, you know someone talking about something to get kickbacks or whatever, but there's probably, whatever issue you're having, there's probably a, a youtube video dedicated to that. So it's a great place to start. But, more than anything, if you are getting into this, your ears are the only thing that matters, and your ears get worse over time in many ways, not better. When you don't really know what things are doing, you just listen to them for what they are, and that's a good time to really be in the studio and mess around and experiment. 
 
23:17
If you want to do it, you have to be a mad scientist type in the sense that you should sit there with an acoustic guitarist for a day and every mic you can get your hands on and every preamp and every different mic setup you can think of, because there's not a right one and often there's not a wrong one, but it's knowing what gets you what results and how it changes moving things around and how that can work to your advantage, because it's kind of the UK style of record making, where you have a sound and it may not be perfect, but then your next sound tries to make that sound perfect. 
 
23:58
So you might put a piano sound in and you close mic'd it and it's a bit of a tinny kind of clanky sound. There's no room to it, it's impersonal. It's like oh okay, now we could go back into the studio and get a beautiful C5 grand piano and do it properly, or we can just take that and we wanted to put an acoustic guitar in anyway. Let's not close mic the acoustic, let's put a mic across the room from it and get a bit of natural room and ambience to it. Then suddenly you have this contrasting clanky piano sound with this beautiful sweepy acoustic sound and you're starting to get a sound stage. 
 
24:37
You know, that's why, not just knowing a way to do things, but all the ways you can do things and experimenting. You can know how you can manipulate these sounds to really put things together and start to build something. Because a song and music's really music when you start to hear into it, because it kind of messes with you. It pulls you in, but then in being pulled into the song, you're actually inside the vocalist thing because they're they're always up front and centre, you're kind of really being drawn towards them. Yeah, it's a trick, you might be pulled towards the acoustic guitar, but you are leaning in and that's body language, that's telling, you're telling you, telling yourself that you are actually coming towards it. 
 
25:17 - Alexis (Host)
Yes, yes, yeah. 
 
25:19 - Terry (Guest)
Yeah, but yeah, like getting into this is really experimenting as much as you can and um there, there is no right answer um to things. So when you start looking, if you want to start looking at YouTube videos, just understand that it's an opinion and it might be useful to you and it might lead you astray as well. 
 
25:44 - Alexis (Host)
just go down that rabbit hole.  
 
25:48 - Terry (Guest)
It is going to be a rabbit hole, but so is anything that's worth doing, you know. 
 
25:50 - Alexis (Host)
If there was another creative that you could ask these questions and have them on the podcast. Who would you want to know these things about, and why? 
26:02 - Terry (Guest)
Oh look, I always love to hear from artists, because that really is where all this begins and ends. So I mean anyone who's doing those things, anyone that's making music that's really, really works, you know on another level, and speaks to you a bit more than just that face value. I'm always ready and fascinated to hear what they have to say. 
 
26:26 - Alexis (Host)
And no, it is interesting thing where we can be so similar and then so totally different all at the same time. 
 
26:36 - Terry (Guest)
That's the beautiful thing about it. It's supposed to represent humanity and we are all a little bit nutty in our own way. 
 
26:45 - Alexis (Host)
Yes, we are well, I know I am anyway. 
 
26:48 - Terry (Guest)
I wouldn't hold you to that that.
 
26:54 - Alexis (Host)
Thank you very much.  Terry Hart. Thank you so much for coming on Through The Creative Door.  
 
26:57 - Terry (Guest)
So nice chatting with you yeah, no, thank you, you too, yay, cheers. 

08 | Everyone Has Their Own Process with Kirsty Hulka

In this episode, Alexis dives deep into the world of artistry with the exceptional Kirsty Hulka. Also known as soul-pop artist Sgt. Hulka, Kirsty is a Perth musician, singer-songwriter, mother and lover of all things with sparkles! 
 
This episode is a treasure trove full of honest reflections on the challenges and triumphs of the songwriting journey. From the solitude that fuels creation to the evolving musicianship shaped by technology, Kirsty opens up about her own songwriting process, her battle with ongoing revisions and perfectionism, and the beauty of finding confidence in her own unique sound. 
 
Although making music a priority can sometimes feel like pushing a rock up a hill, Kirsty illustrates the rewards of forging relationships with fellow artists to the final product of a song, is unparalleled by any challenge. 
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Kirsty on Instagram @sgthulka_
 
This episode was recorded on 12 November 2023 on the lands of the Wajuk Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
 
Creative references from Kirsty:
Software: Logic, GarageBand
Tools: Rhymezone
Podcasts: Switched On Pop, Song Exploder
 
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikToK: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
 
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
 
—------------------------------------------------
 
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door. 
 
00:48 - Alexis (Host)
 
Hi Kirsty
 
00:49 - Kirsty (Guest)
Hi Alexis
 
00:50 - Alexis (Host)
How are you going?
 
00:52 - Kirsty (Guest)
Good, how are you? 
 
00:54 - Alexis (Host)
Thank you for coming on Through The Creative Door. 
 
00:56 - Kirsty (Guest)
Thank you for having me. 
 
00:58 - Alexis (Host)
I spent some time thinking about like how I met you and just like just being in awe and fangirling before even we were friends but you are. I don't know. I have so much respect for you as a creative because not only are you a phenomenal writer, singer-songwriter, performer, but you also are so creative in like your endeavours, Like I've seen you be uber creative, like with merch and like getting your hands all in there and and making things sparkly. 
 
01:32 - Kirsty (Guest)
Yeah yeah, it's, I do I do make a lot of things sparkly
 
01:39 - Alexis (Host)
And also like, yeah, making merch, and like your last show that I saw you, you had a piano that you oh, 
 
01:47 - Kirsty (Guest)
Oh, a piano shell. 
 
01:51 - Kirsty (Guest)
Yeah, so it looks like a grand piano. I'm going to take that with me today actually. 
 
01:54 - Alexis (Host)
Oh really,oOh my goodness, I feel like that needs to be a staple 
 
01:59 - Kirsty (Guest)
For stages that will fit it. It's quite big. 
 
02:02 - Alexis (Host)
is it quite heavy? 
 
02:03 - Kirsty (Guest)
Yeah, yeah. So yeah for shows that um the stage is big enough, then I'll bring it, but yeah when it's um a smaller stage it won't fit. 
 
02:12 - Alexis (Host)
So thank you for having me in your home. I also have seen some of your little creative space that you have at the front, yes, but I'm curious what does a creative space mean to you? 
 
02:24 - Kirsty (Guest)
To be honest, a creative space to me is solitude. I really struggle to create musically when there's other people around. So one of the things that I have noticed just about myself is that, even if someone else is home and, um, I'm, you know, wanting to create some music, I can't do it. I feel like there's people listening, or, you know, when I'm trying out different ideas and going, oh, like this is a cool little idea to play, or this is a cool little song, I end up, if there's someone else home, I feel self-conscious and I feel that I can't create. 
 
03:05
And so one of the things that I've worked out is that, for me, creating musically needs to be a solo thing. I need to be alone in the right headspace to be able to really get into it. One of the hardest things is time, obviously, um, finding the time to allow myself to be creative is often hard. When I've got limited time during the day to be alone, um, and there's always washing to be folded, there's always dishes to be done, there's always an email to be sent, there's always another thing to do, and so being able to actually allow myself to be creative is also one of the biggest challenges, and so I guess having the creative space is one thing, but then, yeah, having the mental space to be able to, to be able to create, is also hard um 
 
04:02 - Alexis (Host)
Do you find that you schedule time in and can delegate it, or is it just more when you've..
 
04:10 - Kirsty (Guest)
Sometimes I can. One thing that I've worked out that works well for me now is that everything is a progression, so like I will start a song and I'll come up with an idea, and then I've got to sit on it, yeah, and then I'll do a little bit more on it and a little bit more on it. I've got to kind of keep coming back to that same idea, the same thing of, like you know, a painter will have their blank canvas and they'll start painting and it's like a work in progress. For me, songwriting is a work in progress. I'm not the kind of person that can sit down and write a song in one go. I have to kind of keep coming back to it and keep readjusting and, yeah, rehashing it and going does that work? How does that work there, if I put this bit there, is that better or is that worse? And I kind of keep going back and forth for a while until I come up with the final product, the final product. So yeah, the creative space is definitely more of a mental space for me rather than an actual physical space. I can create anywhere. 
 
05:14
One of the interesting things I did a while ago, before I had a daughter, I went down to Pemberton, booked a little chalet, stayed down there for three nights or four nights, I think and just set up all my equipment and went I'm just going to get creative. And I got down there and I sat down at the piano, blank nothing. And you know, I'm surrounded by beautiful forests and I've got all this time alone and nothing. And so I sat and I sat and I sat and I went far out come on, Kirsty, we can do this and I ended up, um, so yeah, first day was a write-off got nothing done, nothing at all. Second day went all right, I need tp, I need to do something about this now. 
 
06:06
So I woke up in the morning and I went for a run and I thought I'm going to listen to the songs that I love and the songs that I want to kind of aspire to be. So I listened to a bunch of songs and then I got back to the accommodation and went I'm going to learn those songs and I'm going to learn how to play the songs that I really like and pull those songs apart as to what they have done to make them songs that I like and that I want to listen to and why other people like as well. So I pulled those songs apart and I learned how to play them. And then, since doing that, suddenly it just went ping and I started to get some ideas flowing and going oh, if I just do this, I can be inspired by what they've done there. 
 
06:48
And you know I can use that six, eight time signature. Yeah, I can use that, you know I can go to this chord there that they've done in that song or something. And so then I found that I'd come up with an idea and then I'd let it sit and I'd go for a run and as I'd be running I would get another idea pop into my head yeah and then I'd come back and I'd put that down and then I'd go, all right, cool, that's that bit, and then I'd have to go and do something else. 
 
07:15
So I find my creative space is in little blocks. Yeah now. So to put the pressure on myself of I'm going to sit down and write doesn't work for me. I need to do it in little chunks. I find first thing in the morning I'm very creative. By the time it gets to eight o'clock at night I'm useless. 
 
07:37 - Alexis (Host)
I know. Obviously, at the moment you have a project, Sgt. Hulka, which is amazing. Kicking goals. But, you've also had a lot of projects and a lot of ensembles and things that you've worked on over the years. I'm curious if there's a body of work that you're most proud of and how it came about. 
 
07:57 - Kirsty (Guest)
I'd probably say Sgt. Hulka is the one that I'm most proud of. It's, in terms of how it's developed and how it's progressed, is something that I've put a lot of effort into and I've and I've kind of set myself the goal of good is not good enough. It's like if it's good, that's not good enough. I want it to be better than good, and so whenever, like the last EP, when we recorded the EP, I took all the tracks to my producer and I said these are the tracks I want to record. And he listened to me and he said, oh yeah, they're good. And I went cool, so how do we make them great? And he went well, what do you mean? And I said, well, if they're good, we need to make them better. And so it was trying to pull the songs apart so that then I could go you know, listen to it. From a different perspective of just because that's how I've written, it doesn't mean that's how it has to be. And so I worked really a lot with my producer and working out how the songs could go from good to like really good something that I was able to go. 
 
09:14
I'm really proud, proud of that song. So I think, in terms of, like songs that I'm really proud of. Forget What I Told You, is one that I still surprise myself like I wrote that that was. You know, that's pretty cool that I wrote that. In terms of songs that I'm really proud of and ones that I yeah, something that I can go, I'm really proud of that, Forget What I Told You is one that I am really proud of and I think 
 
09:341 - Alexis (Host)
Well, it's a banging song. 
 
09:42
Yeah, it shows, because of, yeah, the amount of what I put into it. I guess, yeah, even when we were mixing it and my, and you know, Patrick said you know how's it sound, Kirsty? I'm like, yeah, it can be better. And I think by the end, Patrick was a bit like come on, Kirsty, I think it’s good. Yeah but no, it can be better. Yeah, um, and you know it's getting that fine detail of going back to something enough times to be able to go cool, that's it. But there's also that trap of going kind of continuously, going back to it over and over again and then never being happy with it, kind of like the painter that never finishes the painting yeah because they're always making final tweaks. So there has to come a point when you go all right, it's done 
 
10:29 - Alexis (Host)
And what's that point for you do you think? 
 
10:31 - Kirsty (Guest)
I think part of it would be when I feel like I've done enough and I feel like there's nothing more I can do, but also timing. It also gets to the point where I go all right, I've got to actually get this out now. 
 
10:48 - Alexis (Host)
I find for me, for myself, having certain particular deadlines and allowing, yes, there's a little bit of time to pick it up and put it down within that space, but there's definitely a deadline. 
 
10:59 - Kirsty (Guest)
Yeah. So there has to be a deadline there. I've found that as I've gotten older, my creative ability has just massively improved. It's like if I look back to the songs I wrote when I was 20, I'm like, ooh, can't let people listen to that. 
 
11:20 - Alexis (Host)
But how great is it though, because I know for myself. It's the same as the look back and you go oh look, how far I've come. 
 
11:24 - Kirsty (Guest)
Yeah, that's and that's great. I think that's also like when I, you know, being proud of that product that I can put out is that if 20 year old Kirsty was to like, look at what I'd done with the whole EP and the, you know how much I'd put into writing and arranging and recording and everything like 20-year-old Kirsty would have been like wow, that's awesome, whereas like if back then, I would never have been able to do it. 
 
11:55 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah. 
 
11:56 - Kirsty (Guest)
It's like I wouldn't have been able to do it. Yeah, it's like I wouldn't have been able to have to have the mental space, the ability um the knowledge of songs that I've got now.
 
12:08 - Alexis (Host)
You need to flex that muscle. 
 
12:11 -  Kirsty (Guest)
Yeah. The more that I do it, the more I learn, so yeah. 
 
12:14 - Alexis (Host)
So, on the flip side of things that you're proud of, has there ever been something that has challenged your creativity and, if so, what was the major lesson, do you think? 
 
12:27 - Kirsty (Guest)
I think, like everyone, we get the mental block. That's something that's challenged my creativity, especially as a songwriter. You like I, for so many years I would write songs about, like personal songs. This is what this means to me. This is how you know, songwriting is a way that you get out emotions. It's a way that you process what you're feeling. One of the biggest challenges is when I'm feeling really happy and I'm like, well, well, everything's pretty good in my life, so I don't know what I'd write a song about. 
 
13:01 - Alexis (Host)
It's so tough. You're not the first person I've spoken to. That's just like life's really good, and so I don't really have.
 
13:09 - Kirsty (Guest)
Like, how am I going to write a heartache song, and so it's trying to find a song, trying to find inspiration to write when everything's all good. So you know, generally you go into writing songs when you're feeling sad or heartbroken or whatever. But to be able to go right, I'm going to write a song about periods, yes, or one of the things for me is that I have to know what the song is about. I can't write a song when it's got no meaning. I need to have a theme there, even if I don't have lyrics. This is what this song is about. Even if I've got one line in the song and that's the only lyrics I've got for the song, I have to know what the song's about. I have to know what direction it's going in and what message I want to get across. So sometimes finding that inspiration of what do I want to write a song about is the biggest challenge, because songwriting is storytelling. That's the way that I look at it. It's got to be telling a story. You've got to engage with your listeners in your lyrics, otherwise it could just be an instrumental song. 
 
14:21
One of the biggest challenges is finding ways to write songs and what it's going to be about. The other one is the blockage of going. I don't know where to take this, and one of the biggest lessons I've learned is to sit on it, don't rush it, don't push it, just wait. So usually for me it's a six-month process of writing a song, like from beginning til end. I couldn't even tell you the last time I wrote a song. Oh no, I'm sorry. There was one song that I wrote last year that I think I wrote in a weekend, but to me that's my simple song. It's like it's a simple structure. It's simple lyrics. Well, not simple lyrics, but there's nothing complex about it. It's a nice song, but it's not a song that I'd go um. You know, it's not a complex one, if that makes sense. 
 
15:13 - Alexis (Host)
So I do think I mean maybe you feel the same. There are the occasions where suddenly a song just sort of pours out of you yeah, and it just all sort of works yeah um and others where you're just like, yeah, there's a great idea here, but I, yeah, definitely need to sit it down and yeah, mull over it for a bit, yeah, yeah, so like, for example, I was one of the things that I kind of used to get over that challenge, which I've never done before, is, um, the inspiration of other people's songs. So it's not to say that I'm going to listen to a song and be like, oh, I'm just going to copy exactly what they did there. Um, it's trying to use the subconscious of songs that I'm inspired by to create the sounds that I want. Like, one of the songs that I've the next single that I'm going to be releasing had the chorus and I was just struggling with the verse. I'd kind of written it and gone, oh yeah, you know, that'll do, that'll do for now. But in my head I was always like, but I'll get it better at some stage. But I had to get something down. 
 
16:15
And the other day I was driving and one of my favorite songs came on, um, Perfect World by Alan Stone, and as I was listening to it I was like, oh, that's what my verse needs. It needs something soulful and at a higher pitch, because I was trying to sing the verse like too low and it just wasn't working, and so I kind of used that inspiration of what that song was and then tried to put it to the song that I'd done and suddenly it just yeah, it just all went and fit and I was like there it is. And so I think it's about not letting yourself, or not letting myself, being stuck in that moment of frustration of like I can't get it, I don't know what to do with this song, and instead consciously letting it sit, if that makes sense. Now I've learned just to go. I'll take a back step and I'll just leave it and it'll come when it comes.
 
17:09
But also making a conscious effort to allow it to do it. So, listening to songs that inspire me, pulling apart songs that I really like, like well, what chords did they use there? Why do those chords work? Oh, they do some like really cool stabs in that bit that sounds really cool. Oh, they've got like a violin doing some weird thing at the top there and actually pulling other people's songs apart, I consciously find inspiration from the music that I love. 
 
17:33
I think one of the things that I've discovered as well now is that I used to always, you know, write songs in all kinds of different styles. So, you know, I'd get a melody idea and I'd start writing like oh, you know, this one's a bit more of a folk song, or this one's a slower one, or this is a this kind of song. But now I'm a lot more focused on my product. Is I'm going, this is the product that I want to achieve? How do I achieve that? So what do I need to add into a song to make it the product that I want? Rather than, oh, this is how I'm inspired and this is what the song is, I'm taking a much more conscious effort to say I want to be a soul pop artist. I'm fitting it into the style of music that I want, rather than that's just the product that it is. Yeah. 
 
18:24 - Alexis (Host)
I'm curious. I know that we sort of spoke about how you know you don't necessarily need a particular space to be creative, but is it an object or a thing? 
 
18:42 - Kirsty (Guest)
No. Interestingly, the time that I get most of my ideas is on my motorbike. Motorbike and driving. That's when I get ideas pop into my head, not so much car, but yeah motorbike and driving. It's weird and, I don't know why, interesting, but there's been many, many times I've been riding my motorbike and suddenly I'll just get this idea in my head and I've literally had to pull over and get my phone out and record it into my phone and then keep going again. Perhaps it's the know there's nothing else to listen to. Yes, there's. There's no, no one to talk to. There's not a radio to turn on, there's not a podcast to listen to. It's just me and myself focusing on staying safe on the road.
 
19:27 - Alexis (Host)
It's interesting that you say that, because for me, when I do long-haul drives in my camper van on tour or travel, I find that, yeah, it's like because you're concentrating on something else it's like your subconscious has a chance to then start to like make ideas. 
 
19:44 - Kirsty (Guest)
Yeah, like there's nothing else I can do. I can't check my texts, I can't quickly send an email, I can't hang the washing out. I've just got to drive and be safe. 
 
19:55 - Alexis (Host)
If you could give another creative nugget of advice, a piece of advice, what would that be? 
 
20:02 - Kirsty (Guest)
Don't stop. So my advice would be don't stop trying. And I think one of the things with writing music is the moment that you, like I said to you before, the moment that you stop, no one's going to come knocking on your door asking you why, they're, you know you'll just stop. 
 
20:22
Um, when I stopped writing music, when I was in I think I was 26 or 27 um, it was like I I needed a break from it, but I missed it and I wanted to keep doing it, but I lost a. You know, I'd, every weekend, I'd be out playing gigs and suddenly I wasn't, and I wasn't going out and playing gigs. And then I felt bad because I didn't want to go and watch any shows, because I wasn't making any music and the. It took me a couple, quite a few years to actually realize, you know, what was wrong, why I wasn't feeling good about myself, why what was missing in my life. And then I made a decision to start playing music again and it was almost like oh, there it is, that's what I needed, um, and especially playing original music. It's like I needed to be creating again. 
 
21:20 - Alexis (Host)
We spoke off mic about that community and like having your cup filled and how people don't necessarily check in with you, but they're just doing their thing.  
 
21:30 - Kirsty (Guest)
Yeah it’s, I don't regret having a break. I think I needed it. I needed to have that break to pull back and kind of reassess what I wanted. But I'm glad that I've pursued and that I haven't given up. Creativity is, It's hard to allow yourself to do it because you think you know what. I've got to work, I've got to do all these other things and this isn't earning me any money. It's like what's the point of doing it? But the point of doing it is the friends that you meet, the community that you find the cup that you can fill up. It's like I create music because I have to. Yeah, I don't do it because you know I want to be Adele or I want to be Beyonce. That's never been my goal. My goal is I do it because I have to and I know what it's like when I don't do it. I think you know I just I would end up drinking so much because I wasn't playing anywhere and, you know, because I didn't have anything to do. 
 
22:36 - Alexis (Host)
Is there any resources that you would suggest or recommend for someone who's wanting to develop their creativity? 
 
22:46 - Kirsty (Guest)
Logic. Honestly it's game changer or GarageBand. What it's like now as a creative and writing songs, like I started writing songs when I was you know 14 or something, and it was just the piano and that would be all there was. But nowadays the technology that we've got to create like to kind of get the ball rolling, like get some Logic loops and just loop some different riffs going and like sing some words over it and see if it works. Like, there's so much out there in terms of you don't have to know how to play an instrument. You can get creative and write songs. 
 
23:30 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah love it. One extra question, one extra last question. If you could have anyone else come onto this podcast and answer these questions, who would it be and why? 
 
23:42 - Kirsty (Guest)
I mean I would love to hear the creative process of Bon Iver, the whole thing of like how he kind of found his sound in that creative way. So, yeah, definitely Bon Iver. 
 
23:55 - Alexis (Host)
Kirsty, thank you so much for coming on Through The Creative Door. It's so lovely to have you be part of it. Thank you and yeah, excited to see what else is coming down the pipeline for you.
 
24:07 - Kirsty (Guest)
Yeah, exciting things coming up. 

07 | Finding Your Own Rhythm with Morgan Joanel

In this episode, Alexis is joined by Morgan Joanel, a Perth artist, musician, jewellery maker and a true versatile creative force. Alexis and Morgan explore the essence of nomadic lifestyles, discussing the significance of anchor points and how important it is to find your own rhythm in a world of noise. 
They explore the dance between structure and spontaneity in the creative process and how navigating societal norms and personal boundaries can be a true challenge for every creative. Drawing from personal experiences, they reflect on how having boundaries can often feel like hitting a wall, like Morgan’s car accident, which can disrupt your journey and leave you yearning to return to where you were before. Yet, through these challenges, we often discover a profound truth: boundaries, though initially restrictive, can serve as catalysts for growth and self-discovery. 
If you’d like to see more, you can follow Morgan on Instagram @morganjoanel
 
This episode was recorded on 6 November 2023 on the lands of the Wajuk Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
 
Links: 
Disappear Music Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilaxfNNtjRU 
 
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikToc: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
 
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
—------------------------------------------------
 
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door. 
 
00:48 - Alexis (Host)
Morgan, welcome to Through the Creative Door, morgan. Welcome to Through the Creative Door. How you going?
 
00:51 - Morgan (Guest)
Thank you, I am very good. 
 
00:54 - Alexis (Host)
You have been jet-setting around. You are always jet-setting around. 
 
00:58 - Morgan (Guest)
I feel like I don't think I was for a really long time, but recently I definitely have been, so I'm probably making up for all the time that. 
 
01:07 - Alexis (Host)
Amazing. Yeah, yeah, just put it all.
 
01:11 - Morgan (Guest)
Yeah, one little container, get it all out. 
 
01:15 - Alexis (Host)
I love it. I am so chuffed to be able to be chatting with you because I've been fangirling you from afar. I mean, when we talk about creative, you've got your fingers in all of the creative pies. I've been fangirling you for, actually, I came across your music video for Disappear.
 
01:42 Morgan (Guest)
The stop motion? 
 
01:45 Alexis (Host)
Yes, yes, and I was especially because you released that during COVID? 
 
01:46 - Morgan (Guest)
I think it actually. You know what? I think it was one month before COVID hit and I did a launch for it and I did all the PR for it, did the whole proper release, was really happy with it. And then bang. Oh yeah, so it probably got a little more airtime, because everyone's at home and I'm going to work out. 
 
02:07 - Alexis (Host)
I wasn't going to say that. I was just saying that it felt like it was very present in the COVID time. Yeah, because. 
 
02:12 - Morgan (Guest)
I feel like I honestly think it was February 2020. And then that next month and during that time it led to other people having seen other musicians saying “Can you do something for me?” And so when COVID hit, strangely I was inundated with all this digital work and artist work and I was like I guess I can do this stuff for other people. So some crazy good timing. Whatever happened, it happened. 
 
02:42 - Alexis (Host)
Oh my gosh, that's so interesting. Well, for those little listening, make sure you go check out that music video, because I actually think it's quite stunning. It's very beautiful. 
 
02:52 - Morgan (Guest)
Thank you, I very much enjoyed it. I just learned how to stop motion animate stuff for that and I plan to do more, because there's something really special about having being able to always look at it like choreographing the scene, the characters to the music, the colours, and you have the ability to print stuff at home, cut it out on paper and then make it work how you want it to work, and you can do that while you can't go outside, and it's a nice little creative thing where you just let the music come to life. 
 
03:25 - Alexis (Host)
So good and you're. I mean, I'm just mentioning one part of your creativeness. But we're in this beautiful space of yours which you've got a piano, but you also have a sewing machine. You've got lots of beautiful little beading and things like that that I'm assuming from my time of working at a fashion jewellery company back in the day. It looks like all bits and pieces to making jewellery. 
 
03:54 - Morgan (Guest)
It is. It sure is, and I only recently labelled it all yeah, I'll, I'll. I'll say myself a little more time. 
 
04:02 - Alexis (Host)
So I guess it comes into the first question that I had for you, which is what does a creative space mean to you and why? 
 
04:14 - Morgan (Guest)
I think for me I can get away with just a couple of things that are like anchor points. 
 
04:20
So because of the travelling, because of, you know, just being in Europe and going to music festivals and then also being creative and working for a friend's fashion label, shout out to Vera Black it's like living out of a suitcase, being really far away from home and then being in someone else's creative space. That can feel like you just get swept up in the wave of other things and if you're not at home with your specific things that you usually anchor into, it's nice to have just a couple of things that you can carry with you. And so I feel like I can get away with just a few things. Definitely, colours mean a lot to me, so there's specific colours that I don't know why, but because I paint and I often link music with colours, with wording, with art styles. If I have specific like, I have like a specific sarong that I've had for ages and anytime I travel I don't need it, but I'll put that in and if I go, I'm in a hotel room
 
05:32
They'll just be on the pillow or hang it over something and it just it anchors you into this feeling of being at home and safe and creative. And so then you can kind of put the whatever that creative side of your is able to come out, no matter where you are. And so I used to do it where I'd take all. I'd take specific crystals, I would take very specific things because I felt like I had to have certain things, and over time you realize you just don't need as much as you probably think you do in order to activate creative stuff. 
 
06:06
So, yes, you look around my beautiful space, and there's a lot here because I'm making things for other people, or I'm making jewellery for the brand, or I need a record so that my guitars have to be here, or there's my paintings, and but I don't need any of that. It's more like, look, I'm here for a while, so I may as well just keep it all in one place, and then it does inspire you because you know, the more you have, the more you're anchored into it. Yeah, so I think creative space it doesn't have to be one singular space, I think it's a feeling, and I think even down to if I do it a lot with playlists on Spotify. I have one or two that allow me to meditate, so if I'm tired or if there's too much going on and I need to switch off, I have a specific playlist that I love to listen to. So, even down to just sonically, having something that allows you to put your headphones on you could have no shawl, no crystals, no, nothing of yours. 
 
07:08
But when you have, and being a musician, you would get it, you can relate to it, having that space to just go “All I need is a rhythm” and I'm used to this playlist, I'm used to this rhythm. I know it puts me into a calming space. I know I can breathe through it. If I've got pain and I know you experience pain and things like that as well it's something to distract you from it and allow you to go. Everything's okay right now, and then you get back into the wave of life. 
 
07:41 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, so true. It's so interesting that you say that about music because, funnily enough, when I paint which I don't do very often, but I always seem to listen to Linkin Park when I paint. And for whatever reason it puts me in a particular mood to paint. I love that. I've done it since I was a teenager. I don't know, I don't. I don't question it, it just is a thing I don't. 
 
08:08 - Morgan (Guest)
So if you are like at the shops or something, and Linkin Park comes on. Does the music activate you to want to go and paint? 
 
08:13 - Alexis (Host)
It makes me want to paint. 
 
08:15 - Morgan (Guest)
So it works both ways.
 
08:19 - Alexis (Host)
Yep! Speaking of what I mean, you have, like we were just saying, you just have your finger in all of the pies, which is bloody amazing. So I guess this next question is probably going to be a hard one. But what is something that you're proud of creating, and how did it come about? 
 
08:35 - Morgan (Guest)
I think, as a general rule of thumb for me, I don't tend to feel a specific feeling of I'm proud of that that I've created, which is probably due to creating so much that it, to me, just within myself, that end thing is not as much what I'm doing it for. So the end thing like if I'm creating a Mandala artwork or something the end thing is more oh well, like that's just the end of it, that's not what I was doing it for in the first place. So it is a little hard. But I think when there's risk involved with something and I'm putting all of my eggs in one basket, which is usually what you're not meant to do, and when it's a real risk, I literally have to take the risk tattooed on me, probably to remind me to keep doing it. It always works. So I could say, when it comes to actual projects, probably the last Kickstarter project that I put out, the campaign which was crowdfunding, I did the last one to pre-fund and manufacture a deck of Oracle cards which had my artworks all turned into it, and doing that project, the time frames and actually having to get so incredibly structured to bring 56 artworks from paper to digitized to then choosing the manufacturers to uploading, to writing the meanings, but having the risk of people pre-buying it. It's like you have to deliver. 
10:24 - Alexis (Host) That's a gamble, isn't it?
 
10:26 - Morgan (Guest)
It is, and I learned okay, there's certain things about this. I should. That was a mistake. I should not have done that, but you do too bad, you've got to keep going. So I think that was something, most recently, I'm very proud of, but also so that was a year ago. And then just more recently, on a personal, overall life level, choosing to go overseas on a one-way ticket and just rolling with it absolutely changed my life and I'm really proud that, even though that pragmatic side of me was saying this is not a good idea, because what are you going to do when you've spent all your money and you come back and you can't work because technically I'm not allowed to work due to injuries and things like that and thinking, well, you're just going to spend all your money and then what are you going to do? And trying to quieten that voice and actually ignore it and go, but everything in my body and everything I'm feeling is telling me you just have to do it. And then riding that wave and seeing the magic that's come from it, probably more proud of that than anything else. 
 
11:31
And that's recent, so it's nice to understand that side of things. 
 
11:35 - Alexis (Host)
And we spoke off mic about just the pull and throw that's within us as creatives, 
 
11:38 - Morgan (Guest)
The back and forth the organized, the organized in the gypsy and the wanderlust, exactly the pirate and the mermaid. It's like. 
 
11:54 - Morgan (Guest)
There's always like a nice flow and like the rhythm of, I think, the waters like or the structure, and it's great to have that and you can follow it. But then there's also the fire and the spark and the unpredictability, or however you say it, of stuff that just happens and capturing that pulse. And how do you, if you're really structured, how do you capture the gypsy moments, the spontaneity? 
 
12:24 - Alexis (Host)
Because you want to be in the moment and present for those. But that doesn't involve being so structured and rigid. 
 
12:30 - Morgan (Guest)
Yeah Exactly, and then if you're always in the fire and stuff, you don't get to enjoy the things to be proud of. That take time and they need the rhythm. So it's a very interesting line to walk and I think a lot of creatives have that you were saying it's like that friction between which, which you know and I switching the hat. 
 
12:51 - Alexis (Host)
I think that is just the ongoing lesson or ongoing dance that we do, yeah, and it is a dance. 
 
12:59 - Morgan (Guest)
It is a dance because sometimes it's about letting the spontaneity be the leader, and sometimes it's absolutely not. 
 
13:06 - Alexis (Host)
And both of those are scary
 
13:09 - Morgan (Guest)
How do you know which is which? Andno one else can tell you either. 
 
13:11 - Alexis (Host)
No, that's right. 
 
13:12 - Morgan (Guest)
Because everyone has their own process. So, as a creative we were saying that just before that it's like one structure or system or rhythm can work for one person, but as an artist, you have your own, your own thing to express, and so it has to work for you. 
 
13:30 - Alexis (Host)
And I think that's a beautiful thing about speaking to others as well in your community, to be reminded that it's like we're all trying to find the rhythm for ourselves. But it's nice to hear, perhaps the journey of others, to get a bit of like oh okay, maybe, maybe that, maybe that works for me, maybe that bit works for me, maybe that doesn't work for me, because everyone has different aspects. 
 
13:55 - Morgan (Guest)
And, yeah, you're right, like one different person will take, cherry pick a couple of things that are going on for you. When you share your story of what you're doing and how you're achieving things and what's going on for you and what you're working through and how you go about it, some people will cherry pick certain things from your story and say, well, I relate to those things. I might take a couple of them and the person next to them would relate to the complete opposite parts of what you've said. But that's the point is sharing stories or expressing yourself, and we're so lucky that we get to do it in such a beautiful way and really get in touch with emotions and have the, you've got to be brave to be able to share it Honestly. Yeah, especially with algorithms and all that stuff and it becoming this whole thing where it's not even about art, it's just about let's just get popular. 
 
14:44 - Alexis (Host)
Well, I guess that's an interesting way to step into my next question, which is has there been something that's challenged you creatively, and what do you think the major listen was around that? 
 
15:01 - Morgan (Guest)
You know what? Being challenged creatively is probably a similar theme that's come up over, you know, 20 years, 15 years, 10 years, and the more professional that I've gone with bringing music out or doing art, whatever creative expression is, the more I recognize that themes keep repeating and, over time, in different creative outlets, still the same thing that shows up and I genuinely think it's as simple as if I feel suppressed by somebody else in whatever way that is, whether it's partnership, whether it's maybe at school, it might be teachers or, you know, over time, record label, like certain things. If there is a, we were talking about boundaries earlier- if there is a boundary, I will run as hard as I can at that boundary. 
 
16:00
And I come at things like that with if there's a boundary, I can climb over it, I can go through it, I could go under, I could go around it, but I will find the way through. And so in that sense, it's a really strange dance between when you're suppressed and you can't do it, but also being inspired to make it work. And I think that two and a half years ago, when I was in a car accident that came out of nowhere and everything across the board in my life got taken away, family, home, ability to stand, ability to go and play when everything was away, it cleared out maybe cobwebs, it cleared out probably patterns I'd become to think, I'd started thinking and I realized that I was probably suppressing myself in so many ways in the few years leading up to that, and I wasn't even trying to express myself how I'd previously done it and it's. I'm just working this out now, as I'm telling you. So thanks. 
 
17:10 - Alexis (Host)
I can empathize with that in so many ways a totally different journey. But for me, with my complex regional pain syndrome diagnosis at the start of the year, that's just upside down and it's affected your hands. 
 
17:27 - Morgan (Guest)
Yes, so you see, if it had affected your feet or something like that, you'd still be able to play piano and everything, and I couldn't stand because it affected my leg. And so to play guitar and I just can't sit and do it, and you know, and so it. When something physically takes away your creative expression, you're left with having to look at things differently and probably understand why it's so important to you, and then you it's, it's crazy. Then you have this journey of essentially doing whatever it takes to be able to get back to who you already were before. 
 
18:06 - Alexis (Host)
Isn’t that crazy, it’s so true! 
 
18:08 - Morgan (Guest)
Other people, I think, who aren't, say, already expressing themselves and making a living out of it, and stuff would be in their jobs, or wanting to be able to express themselves. And probably looking at anybody who's doing even small gigs, let alone like professionally or whatever, just be thinking, I wish I could express myself in that way. And then you're doing it as your job and as a living and as you know how to do it, and then it gets taken away and you will fight harder to get back to what you're doing when other people have the ability to do it but they don't even know that they can fight towards it. And I find that so interesting. 
 
18:49
And I think that when I said before about having a boundary, I feel that when I had the car accident, it was an explosion that did take everything away, but it took away all the things in all the areas of my life, not just creatively, and the one thing I still had was my mindset, and then that got me through getting through physical stuff, and then, once I started yeah, once I started getting back into feeling that everything was going well, it's like it switched and then I had physical things back, but my mindset was getting worse and worse and worse. 
 
19:22
So I went on a real journey where it was really strange and I got to heal all of this stuff through the whole thing. And I think, as we were saying I said earlier that they do those studies on kids in like an, like an oval, like a playground, and if you put humans in one spot and there's no boundary, no circle on the outside, they all stick together because they don't want to push the boundaries. But as soon as you put a fence up, all the kids will run to the edges and go towards it
 
19:56 - Alexis (Host)
There's the boundary. I want to touch it. 
 
19:58 - Morgan (Guest)
I can do it, I can take the risk, I can do that and I think that's probably when I had this car accident and everything just went bang, itt was almost like that was me, that was the boundary of somehow I don't know how to explain that but something that took all the creativity away. So I was like, right, that's it, I have to get back there. I don't know something strange like that.
 
20:20 - Alexis (Host)
It's interesting that, I dont’ know who I. Something that one of my chiropractors said to me at once was that “the journey to get there is easier because we've been there before.”
 
20:33 - Morgan (Guest)
Oh, that's good. Great advice.
 
20:33 - Alexis (Host)
I got given that, when I was just feeling really disenfranchised, really deflated about ever getting full mobility in my hand back and it was like but you have done that before.
 
20:53 - Morgan (Guest)
I got goosebumps look. Yeah, because that's exactly what I was just saying before, that if people haven't experienced pure expression and knowing the feeling of that joy and just that, what do you even call it? Where you're not even in control of it, it's just coming through you and it's total freedom, right, like when you're able to just whatever you feel inside. You can then put it in the physical world, and when people appreciate it or they listen or they support it, it's bizarre because you think and I'm just doing what's inside of me- how is it that 
 
20:53 - Alexis (Host) 
I'm just a vessel for the thing
 
21:25 Morgan (Guest) 
Yeah, how is it that this, like you, understand it? You know, and other people who can't do that or aren't at the place yet wanna get there so badly. And you're right. That's an incredible way that you're a chiropractor put it to say you've already been there, so you know the way back, and it's just you know the end goal. 
 
21:44 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, it might be frustrating, but you still have been there. You've done all the hard steps. You've really paved the way. 
 
21:50 - Morgan (Guest)
There you go, and then, when something comes, up like a chronic pain thing or a misdiagnosis or whatever it is, you realize. Well, I can go under it, over it, through it, around it, cause I know I will know when it feels like I'm back there. Yes, yeah, that's great, a great way to put it. 
 
22:07 - Alexis (Host)
I love how we're talking this through. 
 
22:13 - Morgan (Guest)
Yeah, it's amazing. Look at us. We're healing everything here, yes. 
 
22:16 - Alexis (Host)
I need to rename the podcast Healing Podcast. We talk about what we need to just work through. 
 
22:23 - Morgan (Guest)
Yes. 
 
22:27 - Alexis (Host)
Actually, maybe that's a good way going into my next question, which was if you could give one piece of advice or a nugget of advice to another creative, what would it be? 
 
22:41 - Morgan (Guest)
A piece of advice I actually think is somewhat similar to what I was saying before, that we all, as humans, have our own internal rhythms and a beat of you know the beat, the back beat right, just the backbone of your life and the way that you interact with people, and it all gets built through families and as you're growing up and, of course, all of that and then your expression, and I think that there's a lot of, we're in a society that is structured to certain calendars and so there's certain societal rules, you know that that make you think you can do one thing but you can't do another, and there's boundaries and all of that stuff. 
 
23:30
And so I really think the best advice anybody could take is you have to find your own rhythm and then you have to be able to accept it and you have to be able to start working with it, especially when it goes against what other people your family, your partners, your friends, your job like, whatever it is will probably be at friction. And the further away you are from being able to express yourself, probably the bigger journey you've got to find it again, because we're all born into this society, which has its own rhythm and it's not created for creative people. So that's always why it's the struggling artist or the crazy artist. So because we're more like anomalies, we're on the outskirts looking at things, because we've found at least parts of our own rhythm. And I think any way, whether you're a musician, poet, designer, artist, painter, filmmaker, photographer, model, actor, playwright, whatever you do, you've got to find your own rhythm to keep it going, because otherwise you get affected by everything else, infected by everything else and it takes over. 
 
24:50 - Alexis (Host)
It's like what you said before about it takes courage to do that and our communities around us. For some of us, we're very lucky and we find the community as we're figuring out what our journey is and what our rhythm is. 
 
25:09 - Morgan (Guest)
But, yeah. You know, I never felt like I had community with creative stuff, probably because I'm a bit of a, I'm like this in. Have you heard that saying the way you do one thing is the way you do all things?
 
25:21
I love that and a lot of the time it's really scary, because if you figure something out and you think, oh, I don't like that about myself or how that's interacted, whatever it is, and then you go Wait, if I'm noticing that I do that here, oh no, am I doing this in other areas? And then sometimes you can sweep across and go ooh, okay. 
 
25:42 - Alexis (Host)
It's a common denominator. 
 
25:43 - Morgan (Guest)
Sometimes it's ugly and not cool and sometimes it's great and you go. I'm so glad I have that courage or I have that ability and, yeah, I can apply that and I just I never really had community and I, and that's just, I was an only child. Well I am. You know, I still am. But so being on my own and being creative, that made sense and a little bit of a social butterfly and a little bit of going from art to painting to singing, to designing things, whatever that relationship to creativity was enough to feel like there was stuff going on. And so it's only been since I went overseas and really found that creative group of people, casual community, and then coming back to Perth realizing it's all here as well and like that's wild, because it was always here but I wasn't there for it or I don't know. It's hard to explain, but it all feels great now and I think, man, that accident, that car accident, was great, just blocked everything out so I could get more straight through the centre. 
 
26:50 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, you don't wish it upon anyone to have trials and tribulations, but if people can get through them as healthily as possible and learn things from them, it helps in some way, I don't know, bridge the divide. 
 
27:08 - Morgan (Guest)
Yeah, like I've been told I can't work. I've been told I've got prescription drugs, everything, and there's times where I'm like I can feel that I've pushed my body physically too hard so I will have to take some of the prescription medication. And then other times I'm like I don't want to take the prescription medication but then I've got vices and I'll lean into that and drink my tequila and whatever, and then that'll make it okay, and then you're unbalanced and then you've got to come back through that rhythm and there's a lot that goes on with all of that stuff. And it's just it's interesting to navigate it all and figure out your own rhythms. 
 
27:49 - Alexis (Host)
Yes, so true, so true. I have one last question for you. If you could have anyone come on to the podcast next and answer these questions, who would it be and why? 
 
28:05 - Morgan (Guest)
I'd love to hear Vera Black answer all of this stuff. Yeah, I think that would be great and she does, has a fashion label, designs hats, and she's Australian and she's from Perth and was in Sydney and is now over there and I think it would be interesting to hear her answer. 
 
28:24 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, Morgan, thank you so much for joining me Through The Creative Door.
 
28:29 - Morgan (Guest)
Thank you for having me. It was great to chat with you. I feel really happy that you asked me to be involved. 
 
28:36 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, I'm so chuffed again. I was fangirling for a while. I love that. 
 
28:41 - Morgan (Guest)
Oh, well, then we're going to have to play more. Do shows together, all of the things. 
28:47 - Alexis (Host) 
Love it, thank you.
 
28:48 - Morgan (Guest)
Thank you. 

06 | Your Music Doesn’t Rely On Your Gadgets with Leigh Gardener

In this episode, Perth-based songwriter and creator of the series “Tender Is The Night,” Leigh Gardener, joins Alexis to share insights into his creative journey. From his experiences coordinating ensembles to his innovative approach to songwriting, Leigh offers a candid look at his creative process. He reflects on the importance of finding a creative space, sharing anecdotes about his trusty desk that has been a constant companion throughout his musical endeavours.
 
Leigh also discusses the genesis of the “Tender Is The Night” music series, born out of a desire to support fellow musicians during challenging times. Through this project, Leigh bridges the gap between contemporary music and classical composition, providing artists with the opportunity to hear their songs transformed by string arrangements. 
 
However, Leigh's creative journey hasn't been without its challenges. He opens up about his struggles with mental health and the realization that his approach to songwriting was taking a toll. Despite setbacks, Leigh remains resilient, seeking healthier ways to channel his creativity and offering valuable advice to fellow artists (like you!). 
 
If you’d like to see more, you can follow on Instagram @chuditchmusic OR @tenderisthenight_music 
 
This episode was recorded on 29 October 2023 on the lands of the Wajuk Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
 
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
 
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
Links: 
Grasping At The Water by Chuditch - https://open.spotify.com/track/45G9QOQvNEDStAiqrumD9D?si=a0d222dafc6a4a56 
Music Video to Grasping at the Water - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Da5zJwzbpc 
 
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
 
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
—------------------------------------------------
 
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door. 
Hi Leigh, 
 
00:48 - Leigh (Guest)
Hi!
 
00:49 - Alexis (Host)
How you going?
 
00:50 - Leigh (Guest)
I'm good, how are you? 
 
00:51 - Alexis (Host)
Welcome to Through the Creative Door. 
 
00:54 - Leigh (Guest)
Thank you for having me. 
 
00:55 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, my goodness, I'm so excited that you're here. You are such a talented bear. You do lots of things, thank you very much. Lots and lots of things, things that people might not see all the time. 
 
01:07 - Leigh (Guest)
No, probably not no. 
 
01:09 - Alexis (Host)
No. 
 
01:10 - Leigh (Guest)
And that's sometimes a good thing. 
 
01:11 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, yeah. You have been part of heaps of different ensembles over the years, so you were a very accomplished musician yourself, and you've also seen how the industry works and given back in lots of different ways. Why I wanted to chat to you is because, all of that stems from creativity and I would be curious to know what, for you, is a creative space. 
 
01:45 - Leigh (Guest)
Yeah, look, I think that's all I have going for me in a lot of ways is because I wouldn't really even consider myself a musician. 
 
02:01 - Alexis (Host)
Which I find very hard to believe, considering that you play so many things. 
 
02:07 - Leigh (Guest)
No, I enjoy marking around on them, but I feel like my niche has more been coordinating other people that are creative as well in some ways. Well, that's what I think everything has sort of led me to. That's that, like, I still love creating for myself, but I think yeah, it's a weird one I don't necessarily think. I still don't feel like I understand music at all. I hid my masters of theory books that were up on this and I just hid them because I was like I don't want people to see that I'm still trying to do level one. But yeah, no, we're all still learning. 
 
02:56 - Alexis (Host)
But yeah, no, we're all still learning. 
 
02:58 - Leigh (Guest)
Yeah, we are, we are. But I guess you know it's. I think that's what I've found. Like I have ideas and then I am good at trying to make them come to fruition. I think that's been my strength in this industry. Yeah, I think that's and that's. Yeah, you're going to be comfortable with what your strengths are. 
 
03:21 - Alexis (Host)
That's true. That's true, and we're in your little. I don't want to say dungeon, but.
 
03:26 - Leigh (Guest)
It's been said before
 
03:30 - Alexis (Host)
It has been said before. But this is your office, your, your space. 
 
03:35 - Leigh (Guest)
Yeah, I guess when you sort of said that I you know what is your creative space. I have been living the share house life for 18 years, I reckon at least since I finished high school pretty much and I was trying to think like where is there a specific place that I feel creative and I couldn't really pin down an exact thing. I think one of the things I really love about being creative are those Eureka moments, those things that come from being unplanned, that just sort of. And it's a detriment to me as well, because I feel like a lot of my songwriting I rely on that feeling to feel like I'm doing something good, whereas I think good creatives don't wait for that feeling. They just work. It's like a job, they just sort of work through things, they wait for inspiration and stuff, but they don't have to feel this massive elation to be like, oh, I'm doing something, that's good. They just consistently work at it. 
 
04:50
But I could say that I guess I felt for the consistent thing I've had for 18, those 18 years and probably longer is actually this desk. This desk belonged to my great grandfather and then it was my dad's and then, I reckon, since I was about eight or nine. We had some refurbishments in my house and this desk was sort of shoved into the bedroom that me and my brother had and you can see there's like holes in it from where extra shelves were added like alarm clocks and stuff, and all down the front of the drawers there are stickers that came from. Do you remember, like those scholastic book fairs? 
 
05:38 - Leigh(Guest)
That came to the libraries and stuff. I think I bought a sticker book or something and it was all around. I think it was the Atlanta Olympics in 2006 or something. 
05:48 - Alexis (Host)
Oh yeah, I see gold medals.
 
05:50 - Leigh(Guest)
Gold medals and country flags and all this rubbish. So it stuck with me. I've dragged it around to pretty much every share house that I've lived in. This desk has gone with me and it's kind of this drawer here at the bottom. I've decided to repurpose it but for I reckon since I was probably 15, 16, when I started to be a songwriter, I used to, whenever I'd have those little Eureka moments, I would write the lyrics down on a piece of scrap paper and it would go into this drawer and then when I would have a song idea or when I'd finally had sort of a melody or a chord progression, I would start pulling out all those little slips of paper and start jigsawing the lyrics together. And that's how I've kind of always worked as a songwriter is sort of having little ideas and almost trying to fit them together, and I don't know if I would recommend it as a songwriting technique. I know INXS used it. 
 
07:02
They said they used to use like a washing basket or something and they would fill that up. 
 
07:08 - Alexis (Host)
I think there's a mod. I swear I've heard on the grapevine there's a modern band who has a spreadsheet and they have little bits that they put in as well. 
 
07:17 - Leigh (Guest)
Well, I mean nowadays I use my phone and that's I always put my. I have a couple of notes where it's just ideas, but yeah, for a long time they went into that drawer and then I'd pull them out and they were the most disgusting scraps of paper. Yeah, a lot of my early songwriting ideas came because I grew up on a dairy farm. It would happen when washing down the yard, at the end of milking or during often during milking, because you'd be singing little songs in your head or just thinking about life in general or anything. And you know it's something that I've sort of picked up. 
 
08:01
You know I really love watching documentaries and stuff, but I think being bored Paul Kelly said being bored was a really important part of being a songwriter or being creative is having that time where there's nothing else interesting you. And I know Elliot Smith, he used to love working really boring, laborious jobs like plastering or making mud for bricklaying or something like that. I think he used to do a lot of those sorts of labour jobs where you could be incredibly repetitive and not actually put much thought into what you're doing and that way you had space to be somewhat creative but also you weren't exhausting your mind during the day. 
 
08:47 - Alexis (Host)
I can empathize with that. I find, when I do long-haul drives.
 
08:53 - Leigh (Guest)
Yeah, yeah I do love driving. I used to love. I, yeah I often people sort of go why don't you put the radio on when you're driving? It's like that's the best time. It's just having some science. But the frustrating part is when you do have an idea and then you have to somehow get it down and sometimes rocked up to places. I've got scribble notes my thighs. Yeah, I've written it like just grabbed a pen written it on my thigh as I'm driving or when you get to a traffic light or something like that. 
 
09:21 - Alexis (Host)
I've definitely had to pull up. I'll be like doing a hundred and ten somewhere and having to like pull straight up so I can do a voice memo. 
 
09:28 - Leigh (Guest)
I think, yeah, I think it's more scary when you've actually got a melody idea, because then it's, you can write down words. But you know, having all those that's a lot harder to remember. I think. Well, for me anyway. 
 
09:39
No, I can't so yeah, I guess, if we're gonna talk about some sort of consistent space, this, this desk, would be one. When, when I had my first band, Louis and The Honky Tonk, and we used to do a lot of artwork, I quickly realized why am I paying other people to try and come up with band posters and stuff? Just make it yourself. Not really realizing, I was totally and totally am and still quite inept with like any sort of photoshopping or anything like that. 
 
10:12 - Alexis (Host)
So, off the back of that, you have done so many things and I'm sure you will continue doing so many things, but is there a body of work or something that you're the most proud of creating, and how did it come about? 
 
10:25 - Leigh (Guest)
if we were talking about me as an artist, I would say this song Grasping At The Water. I felt like I got it was it was. I just felt like I got most things right with it. Like the chord progression is very easy and that's because I did it. The drums are very simple, but I just got the right people to do them and that they sort of took something very simple and made it interesting, which I think is really, I think the listeners really like. I think people like that, you know, not that it's had any massive traction or anything, but I think there's really something to something being very simple but done in a way that makes it interesting, rather than, you know, if you do try and do something simple that sounds complicated or something that sounds simple and is simple, it just doesn't quite get people. But if it's something that's, yeah, simple but interesting, or I think the flip side of that, you have to do something that's complicated that sounds simple. But I was very proud of that song. 
 
11:34 - Alexis (Host)
I mean, and the accompanying music video.
 
11:40 - Leigh (Guest)
Yeah, that worked out particularly well as well. It’s funny, the video is of me somewhat getting, I get shaved and I get my teeth brushed and, but it's all done through the lens of almost a Instagram filter and there's people commenting and the comments would affect what the hands coming into the footage would be doing to me. I guess that's the one of the not a flaw. But the song was written as a sort of description. It was meant to be a metaphor for how, in particular through social media, it was hard to do anything right, like anything you tried to do, there'd be people that would disagree with you, and in writing the song, I sort of set up a metaphor of it. You know, in particular, I felt you know women. 
 
12:27
It was particularly hard to be able to do anything correct, like it's a pretty difficult space and women probably get criticized far more than men in that space, you know, unfairly, in particular. If we’re being selfish, that's a creative thing that I'm very proud of. I guess on a bigger scale, the Tender Is The Night music series. Like that came about during COVID lockdowns, when a bunch of friends of mine who were composers and string players had 12 months of work cancelled because no one knew if it was going to happen or what was going to work. And some of them had mortgages and stuff and they're just freaking out. 
 
13:16
And everyone was coming together as a community and really trying to help. And I was being a bit extremely naive, like thinking back and just going you're an idiot. But I had, you know, a few thousand dollars in my account and in my savings account and I was, like, you know, I've had this idea for a little while. After working with Beck on having strings on my songs, I was thinking, you know, I feel like that's something everyone, every musician, really wants to do is have that, you know, Nirvana unplugged moment where you're getting to play with string players and stuff, or The Verve Bittersweet Symphony, you know, like we all think of. It's a really kind of, it's something that almost feels out of reach to, I think, contemporary artists having a quartet play your music. 
 
14:04 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, such a special feeling and sound that yeah, unless, of course, someone's going to encourage you to go into that space, perhaps. Yeah a little, like you said, a little out of reach. 
 
14:16 - Leigh (Guest)
It does, and I guess. So I decided to commission a few composer friends to write some music, and it just grew into a small little show with Tanaya Harper, who was amazing. And then we sort of went, oh wow, this, this works, maybe we should do another one. So we got another artist and then another artist and it just then, all of a sudden, another friend sort of took, took it to a council and said this looks like something you guys should be doing, like support these people.  
 
14:50
And so now it's turned into you know, we're just entering our fourth season and still, you know, trying to support composers and, you know, upcoming composers and string players, and but also giving this opportunity to contemporary musicians to to have their music with a quartet and hear it in a different way. An what I think I really like, what I really like about strings is you can hear what people are still saying. You like so that the message of their words which is what I'm really passionate about with music was, to start with, was the words that still comes across, and and often the strings really enhance what's trying to be said. 
 
15:37 - Alexis (Host)
They’re so emotive.
 
15:41 - Leigh (Guest)
Yeah, they are, they're incredibly emotive.  So, yeah, I feel like that's being particularly as it sort of came for me at a really important time in my life where I didn't feel like I was contributing so the music community anymore, and I didn't know how I was going to contribute, going forward, it, it sort of it came as a real blessing. So I feel like it's something that's bigger, way bigger than me now and way more important than then just my feeling good about myself and helping those friends. It's, it's, you know, it's something special. 
 
16:19 - Alexis (Host)
So flipping that coin on it's head yeah. Has there been a time or a season that has challenged your creativity, and what was the major lesson? 
 
16:37 - Leigh (Guest)
I still haven't got the lesson out of it, maybe. Okay, still something I'm working on. I had some mental health struggles and I kind of realized that the way that I was trying to write songs, having those Eureka moments, wasn't healthy for my mental health. I was ruminating a lot on things that were going on in my life and I guess to me those song lyric parts and what part of the reason probably why I like Grasping At the Water is, I felt like they were really complete lyrics and said exactly what I was feeling or what would I was trying to say. But in doing that I was having was ruminating on things that weren't healthy to ruminate on for a long periods of time. I was being very self-critical and very harsh on myself, maybe, and it just wasn't healthy, and so the realization was I can't keep putting myself In that position to create art. So I sort of walked away. Not well, I had it, didn't walk away. I finished a few songs and I definitely finished them from a healthier position, but they still probably aren't incredibly healthy songs. 
 
17:56
After Grasping The Water, I released Cue The Violins, which is pretty much exactly about what I'm saying is like cue the violins oh, you know you're feeling sad, you know like, but it was all about I've got something that I need to talk to someone about, you know, and I guess there was somewhat a bit of a guilt about talking about your feelings and but you know the song, the first line, so “I want to separate the fiction from my fate.” You know that, that fiction that I was creating in my head to almost work myself into a state where I felt comfortable with those lyrics, that I felt they were good enough to be in a song, you know, but in a way I was creating a fate for myself that wasn't really where I wanted to go. So I had to sort of stop that and I've sort of said to myself I need to discover a way of a more healthy relationship with writing songs. 
 
18:56 - Alexis (Host)
It brings me into my next question. Yeah, is there an object or a thing that you can't live without when you create? 
 
19:07 - James (Guest)
To me, I've have one of these in my hands quite a lot especially if I'm bored, 
 
19:11 - Alexis (Host)
For those who are listening, it is a cricket ball.
 
19:17 - James (Guest)
And I'll spend a lot of time leaning back in my chair just throwing it into the air, watching the seam rotate, as if I'm, you know, bowling a ball to swing, yeah, and trying to get that into the right positions. 
 
19:30 - Alexis (Host)
But just, perhaps, maybe that's your object that keeps you I don't know grounded while you're yeah, I think. 
 
19:36 - Leigh (Guest)
Well, it's like I said about the Paul Kelly thing about being bored and you know, maybe when you're trying to think something over, just having some something, that I find it really hard to just stay in one spot. If I’m being creative, I like to be walking, moving sometimes, and sometimes that's good, but sometimes if you're trying to finish something, it's counter-intuitive. 
 
20:01
And you know, if you just need to stay at your computer for a moment, like sometimes, like alright, I'm just going to throw a ball for a moment and it’ll, keeps you in your seat, keeps you from getting up yeah, I love that. 
 
20:13 - Alexis (Host)
Off the back of that, if you could give one piece of advice, nugget of advice to another creative. What would it be? 
 
20:23 - Leigh (Guest)
In some ways I think you really need to be like laser, laser beam focused. Like I said, I've got lots of gear and some. 
 
20:35
I reckon that takes up a huge amount of space in my head and always has for some reason, like I've always had a bit of an obsession with the gear and you know you'd go on pages and look up what guitar pedal someone's using or how what guitar amps they're using, and then it turned into an obsession about microphones and like reading up on studios and recording. And you know, buying gear and to buy gear you have to keep working and so you get a job that pays well. And then you know I got into drums. So I started buying heaps of drums and all this sort of stuff, all this sort of stuff. But the truth is it's not important and, you know, stupidly, my dad's not a musician but he told me that it's very early on. It's like you don't need that to do what you're doing. You know, but he's just, he's just as bad. He's always going through the Farm Weekly which is the magazine that you'd get every fortnight or something looking at tractors and the latest you know, machinery and stuff. 
 
21:37
So I probably got it from him to be honest but he was, you know he was probably trying to be honest with me. It's like, do you actually need that to do what you're going to do? And it feels good to have a nice guitar in your hands, it feels good to have drums and they can be inspiring, but it doesn't stop you from writing a song. Having a, being in a fancy studio doesn't necessarily stop you from recording. So that leading into, like having that laser focus on what it is exactly you're trying to do. 
 
22:09
And you know I also flip side saying you know, going into producing, so producing shows, going into trying to manage a band that you're in, trying to, and I've worked in the music industry as a stage manager and a backline manager and a guitar tech and a sound person they're all great things and they're all things that stem from that love of music. 
 
22:34
But they take you away from, maybe, what you were trying to do to start with and you spend too much time, you spend your weekends doing stuff for other people. Sometimes you get so caught up in what you think you are and what you think you're trying to do that you don't hear what the world's actually saying. Actually, you're really good at this, you know that's what you should be focusing on, so that could in some ways that could take you away from what you really should, what that laser focus, but in some, but in some ways it's really important to be open to those other possibilities because they will lead you to who you maybe you actually are and what you are actually good at. I don't know if that was a great answer.
 
23:28 - Alexis (Host)
It's a great answer. I love it. I love it. One last question if you could have anyone come on to the podcast next and answer these questions, who would they be and why? 
 
23:39 - Leigh (Guest)
Ian Grandage, who is like the Perth Festival director. I guess he would be pretty amazing because not only is he a classical composer, but he's now sort of been curating a festival and I think that that would be incredibly like so, so freaking hard, and I you know, it'd be amazing to know how he does that
 
24:05 - Alexis (Host)
Well, I'll see what I could do. Maybe he’ll be on a future podcast. 
 
24:09 - Leigh (Guest)
Who knows? 
 
24:10 - Alexis (Host)
Leigh, thank you so much for speaking on Through The Creative Door with me 
 
24:14 -Leigh (Guest)
No worries, thank you so much for considering me. 

05 | Letting Go Of Your Inner Critic To Serve You with Stacey Ann

From the excitement of being part of the 2023 Telethon to discussing the importance of personal creative space, Stacey Ann opens up about her experiences as a songwriter, business owner and a general creative being. She reveals the challenges of battling anxiety, even as a successful artist, and shares how unexpected detours can lead to beautiful discoveries in your art. 
 
Laugh along as Stacey and Alexis recount her makeshift studio adventures in Europe and the joys of finding creativity in unexpected places. Plus, get a sneak peek into Stacey Ann's upcoming EP release and hear about the rollercoaster journey of creating a body of work. With laughter, honesty, and a whole lot of heart, this episode is a must-listen conversation for anyone needing to be reminded to celebrate the small wins, because art is linear and we're all on our own timelines. Get ready for some inspiration, support and giggles! 
 
If you’d like to see more, you can follow Stacey on instagram @staceyannmusic
 
This episode was recorded on 24 October 2023 on the lands of the Wajuk Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
Artists from Stacey: 
@_ribs_ 
@joanandthegiants
@kingibis 
@verucamoon 
@goldenpanthertattoo 
 
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
 
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
—------------------------------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door. 
Welcome, Stacey Ann. Thanks for having me. 
 
00:48 - Stacey (Guest)
Thanks for having me. 
 
00:50 - Alexis (Host)
I'm so happy to see you. I'm so glad that we get to come into your little creative space.
 
00:58 - Stacey (Guest)
 It's so nice to have you. Welcome. 
 
01:05 - Alexis (Host)
You have just finished doing the Telethon, which is very exciting. 
 
01:05 - Stacey (Guest)
It was so much fun, we had the best time and it was so cool to be a part of something that's so, so special. And they beat their records again this year, which they tend to do every year. I am so amazed as to how they do that, but it's pretty incredible. 
 
01:20 - Alexis (Host)
I saw a little bit of snippets on socials and it looked pretty fun being in the studio, like the bit where they ring up and the call centre. 
 
01:29 - Stacey (Guest)
Yeah, the call centre, that was so fun. All of them are so lovely and all the volunteers are just there to have a really good time as well, so it was pretty cool to be a part of that. 
 
01:37 - Alexis (Host)
So cute. I wanted to have a chat to you. I'm asking everyone about their creative space and I guess you've welcomed me in and I'm very excited to be here. But I'm curious what does a creative space mean to you and why? 
 
01:56 - Stacey (Guest)
That’s a great question, I don't know. I guess it's my safe space and it's my happy place and it's where I can just be myself, free of judgement, which I guess a lot of people can probably relate to in their creative spaces too. But it's weird because, having not really been home much, my creative space is in my bedroom, by the way, for context, but I haven't really been home much the last few weeks and even today, coming into my bedroom, I've just felt a lot calmer and it's really made me realise how much it helps my mental health just being in my own space, and it's pretty crazy that that can affect you so much. It's actually been a while since I've sat and played the piano, so that was something I wanted to do today to relax a little bit, because it's been a full on couple weeks, but really fun couple weeks, but I've just needed to rest in my safe space. It's just brought back how important it is to do that every now and again, because I haven't, and it's really shown that. 
 
03:11 - Alexis (Host)
And we spoke offline, off the recording, off mic. But we talked about the peaks and troughs of it all, when it rains, it pours almost like you feel everything is on the calendar all at once and it takes you away from being in your creative space and being able to write because you're obviously the doing, which is amazing - that’s why we create for. 
 
03:36 - Stacey (Guest)
I love the doing, but I also love the doing in here, which I don't get to do as much, unfortunately. 
 
03:44 - Alexis (Host)
Speaking of bodies of work and the doing. What, if there is something that you're most proud of, whether that be something that you've created yourself or you've done in collaboration with others, how did that thing come about that you're most proud of? 
 
04:05 - Stacey (Guest)
It's probably my EP that is about to be released, in March of 2024. I guess this is probably the biggest project I've worked on. It's been the longest time frame of project that I've worked on and it's been with people that I really admire as musicians and I'm really lucky to be a part of something so special with them as well. They make me feel so I don't know just welcomed in the industry as well, and I just feel so lucky to be able to collaborate with them on my music and they're so excited by it, which is so lovely to find that you can work on something that's your own, but they're just as excited as you are. Do you know what I mean? It's pretty rare to find that and I'm really really lucky. I'm super grateful that I found..
 
04:57 - Alexis (Host)
Your tribe.
 
04:58
Yeah, pretty much actually, yeah, I'm really, yeah, honestly, I can't express my gratitude for these guys more, because they are just so special, yeah, and even like working with a new producer and recording person. I think they're called sound engineers, but anyways, sound engineers, yeah, the things, the amazing magicians that they are, yeah. So I've worked with a new producer and sound engineer this year and he is just like amazing as well, and he definitely falls into that category of just such a magician in the music industry and my songs sound like just better than I ever thought they'd be able to after like the mix and everything. And yeah, I'm just, yeah, I'm really excited for it. 
 
05:49 -  Alexis (Host)
Yes, I'm so excited. Can’t wait to hear it. And it is that having your allies in your tribe around you, your backbone, your support network. 
 
06:02 - Stacey (Guest)
Yeah, honestly because during this whole year, I've felt really like, obviously, like being an artist is such a rollercoaster of emotions and you constantly have to be your own cheerleader at some points as well, and I just feel like working with these guys, this like whole year has been such a rollercoaster, but like having them there is such like validation to keep going and, yeah, I don't know if I would still be doing it without them. Essentially, so I'm just, yeah, pretty grateful that they're around really, 
 
06:31 - Alexis (Host)
And I'm sure they're very grateful to be part of your project too. Oh thanks. Speaking of things that we're proud of, on the flip side of that, as a creative, has there been something or a situation that's been quite challenging, and what was the major lesson? 
 
07:02 - Stacey (Guest)
Mental health has been the biggest challenge recently. Yeah, I actually used to have the biggest, most severe anxiety when I was in year six in primary school, to the point where I couldn't leave the house, like it was pretty bad. And then I went into high school and met new friends and like had new environments and it kind of over the years in high school went away and eventually it became like just this thing that didn't even define me anymore and I just didn't even think of it as being part of my life and I was like, yeah, I've like beat this thing that used to be a part of me and consume me. And I remember saying at my graduating recital at uni that like I just never would have thought I would be on a stage like this and like, if you feel like you're not capable of doing something, like you are because here I am, kind of thing. And then I went to Europe last year on my own for two months and I was so excited for the adventure. 
 
08:11
But it was a bit of an adventure that I wasn't really ready for because I ended up having like all of that anxiety that I had as a kid become triggered by a lot of things that were going on at the time and I guess, just being in a foreign country and like not really having your main support networks around you, it kind of yeah, it just took over my whole life for two months and I became like such a shell of who I was before I left, and which was really sad, because I really wanted that to be like a growing experience and in some ways it definitely was. Like it was such self discovery and I learnt so much about myself and what I'm actually capable of doing, but just not in the way that I thought I would, which is so funny, because sometimes the universe throws things that you don't really think are going to be there and then they just like
 
09:13 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, never get what we set out. 
 
09:15
Like yeah no hundred percent, like I set out for a journey of self-discovery, but not really that one. 
 
09:21
But you know what? Yeah, so I'm like hold two months in Europe. I didn't have, like my instruments or like anywhere I could go and sing or any music really around me that I was familiar with. I didn't really know where to go to find gigs to attend and like it was just such a different world and, if anything, it really made me realize how important is to have music in my life in some form, whether it's my own or someone else's. And yeah, I came home and I played a really beautiful gig at the Freo Church with Helen Shanahan and it was just like everything I needed and I like I sang a solo song on piano, which is like my biggest fear is like singing solo on stage while playing an instrument, and I was like you know what I Like was a shell of a human, like a month ago.So who cares? What's the worst that's gonna happen. Can't get any worse. When you reach rock bottom, the only way is up. 
 
10:13 - Alexis (Host)
It’s true!
 
10:22 - Stacey (Guest)
So yeah, it kind of was like a huge stepping stone in my life and probably the biggest challenge that I've faced in the last couple years, but it was something I think I needed for sure to like recalibrate in a way and be like what is actually important to me, because like just having to survive each day and, like you know, make it through the day without falling apart, or like being able to eat food, for instance. You know, like that is sometimes like I would go through the day and be like yay, you ate three meals a day. Like go you, and it's so funny how your goals can change when you're going through something so crazy. 
 
11:02 - Alexis (Host)
Totally, because you're going back to the fundamentals. 
 
11:06 - Stacey (Guest)
Yeah, you're like I'm functioning and that is all I need to do, and sometimes you have to remind yourself, like even you're in the hustle and bustle, that like if you've drank water and you've eaten, seen a bit of sun, smiled, you know, like you've had a good day and it’s really humbling to like have an opportunity to be reminded of that. I think so. Yeah, it's actually really helped me with this EP that I've recorded, because I was like you know what? I'm just doing this for me because no one else. It actually doesn't matter if anyone else hears this, because I've had the best time. 
 
11:40 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, and it's hard. It's hard, obviously, being in the industry that we're in and the way that society is is that? Measuring by external, yeah. Parameters, yeah, but it's like we, only us, can we define what success is? Absolutely, and it's easy to say but sometimes really hard to embody. 
 
12:05 - Stacey (Guest)
Oh, absolutely, yeah, yeah, and it's so funny because, like even because that was about a year ago, even a year I've like forgotten some of those things and I'm like have to remind myself. Like a year ago you were just like in bed all day. You know what I mean. So, like, yeah, it's really important to just remind yourself of like the fundamental things in life and if you're like supported by people around you, then you can make it through. You know what I mean. 
 
12:34 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, beautiful, I'm so glad. What a, what a beautiful full circle. 
 
12:39 - Stacey (Guest)
Yeah, I feel like it is. 
 
12:40 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, speaking of being creative and we're in this beautiful space of yours Do you think that there's an object or a thing that you can't live without when you create? Could be something sentimental, could be like something really practical. 
 
13:04 - Stacey (Guest)
I don't know, because when I was in the UK, I didn't have anything that I would usually have when I create, so I ended up finding a new way of like creating something, and it turned out to be like the best thing I've ever done. 
 
13:19 - Alexis (Host)
Okay, you do tell, do tell do tell. 
 
13:22 - Stacey (Guest)
Well, no, like it literally was just that I I didn't have my piano with me, so I was like you know what we're gonna midi this? Because I had my laptop, sure, and I ended up recording my vocals on my phone and voice memo-ing it and air-dropping it to my laptop. 
 
13:36
Yeah, and then I was like yeah honestly, I was like we're gonna like make ship the studio here because I'm like in need of some help. And yeah, this was like a different way of creating music for me, because usually I would just like write the stuff on piano and like start off with like a fairly like slow tempo and I'll be like, oh, actually this needs to go faster. But like in terms of starting off the song, I just had like heaps of stuff will open on logic and I was like let's just chuck this beat in and like let's change. Like. I took this really slow song that I had already kind of written and I just put it into logic and I sped it up and I was like I just want to like play around with this and have some fun, because who cares? 
 
14:23
Yeah, and it's funny what you do when you like let go of like your critic a little bit and
 
14:29 Alexis (Host)
Just go back to the inner child of just playing
 
14:31 Alexis (Host)
Yeah, I wish she was like I just want to play around and see what happens. And it ended up being like the single I just released and it's like my favorite song I've ever written. So I don't know, I feel like I have somehow weirdly managed to. As long as I have like the ability to not be too critical, then like I can just create something for me. 
 
14:54
Yeah and yeah, I don't think I really need a thing. Yeah, I think it's a mindset to be honest, yeah. 
 
15:03 - Alexis (Host)
It's so funny that you say about, like in a space where you didn't have instruments and you used what was at your disposal. So for me at the moment, with Complex Regional Pain Syndrome and low right arm, I can't play piano. And so it's funny that you say that you just sort of pivot. Yeah, I did the good old like YouTube, slash Google of like piano melodies in A minor backing track, like whatever. So like had someone doodling over and like sang and made these like. 
 
15:39 - Stacey (Guest)
I love it. You gotta do what you gotta do.
 
15:42 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, yeah it's so funny. It was like I've somehow managed to find myself a backing track. 
 
15:46 - Stacey (Guest)
We love it. I love that so much, but he actually it's weird because you find like different avenues of creating and sometimes that'll lead to a completely different thing that you would have never created otherwise, which is like the beauty of the of music, because it's such a different language and there's so many avenues. 
 
16:05 - Alexis (Host)
Now, if you could give one piece of advice, nugget of wisdom, to another creative. What would it be? 
 
16:17 - Stacey (Guest)
Wow, I've actually been thinking about this recently because I've had such like a deflating couple of weeks in the industry, but also like the most, the most lovely and the most like fueling couple of weeks. But, as I said, it's a roller coaster. So we don't get one thing, we get it all. 
 
16:37 - Stacey (Guest)
But I guess the biggest thing I've learned is to not do it for anyone else, because you're not really going to achieve much if you set out to make a sound for someone else unless, of course, that's like a brief that you're trying to feel, but like in terms of like original music if you're not doing it for yourself, it's just really hard to please people, and I guess I had a few things written down because I wanted to. I remind myself of these all the time, especially recently. Not everyone is going to like what you do, which is one that I had to remind myself of actually today, because I got heaps of feedback on this song that I had just released and it's like, as I said, my favourite song yet and they were just like a lot of people that were like, yeah, not my taste, or like it's not for me, and like they can word things in a way that make you feel so awful about what you've just like put a year into but, at the end of the day, like there were people that also loved it. 
 
17:43
so you just have to like remind yourself of the positive ones and celebrating the small wins yeah, I kind of ties in with that one oh,
 
17:51 - Alexis (Host)
I'm such an advocate for that yeah
 
17:55 - Alexis (Host)
Like no matter how small they are, like even just like getting on a playlist or like finishing a chorus of a song and like loving it at the moment, like that is such a small win that deserves to just be lived for a little bit, and celebrate.
 
18:13 - Alexis (Host)
Especially because for us it's not like we're getting to some imaginary finish line, like you're running through tape. This is just like, once we sort of get one little goal, we're on to the next goal, like there's no. It's linear. 
 
18:23 - Stacey (Guest)
Yeah, right, and there's no like formula yes, which is crazy to me that like we're all kind of working in this industry and like doing all these things that like we're told to do, to like get your song out there or like write a certain way, and it's just pretty crazy because it's such a subjective industry.
 
18:42 - Alexis (Host)
 It's art. It's not a corporate letter that we follow absolutely. It's art. it's appropriation yeah, opinions, it's points of view.
 
18:52 - Stacey (Guest)
Yeah, so yeah, lots of those things have just been in my brain bubble at the moment, because it's really important to just remind yourself that like this is for you and like people will love it if you're authentic as well. There's no point doing it if you're not just loving it because people will notice that and love you for it. The next song I'm actually releasing is called Ripples, and I wrote it about my friends because they are like ripple effects in my life that like once you surround yourself with positive people, it just it creates ripple effects in all other parts of your life and you're happier for it. So I just find that, support networks are up there. 
 
19:35 - Alexis (Host)
Yep, for sure 100%. One last question yeah, if you could have anyone come on this podcast and answer these questions, who would it be and why? 
 
19:46 - Stacey (Guest)
Wow, I actually, like so many people come to mind because I have such a tribe of beautiful, creative women in my life and I'm lucky enough to call them my friends and my support network at the same time, and I think they all have such beautiful stories to tell and different journeys and avenues and I feel like any one of them would be such a beautiful thing to witness. So, Georgina Crammond from Ribs, Grace from Joan of the Giants, Nadine from King Ibiss, Vanessa from Veruca Moon. 
 
20:27 - Alexis (Host)
Off mic, you did mention a tattoo artist. 
 
20:30 - Stacey (Guest)
Oh yeah, there's a beautiful tattoo artist that I will potentially be collaborating with in my other creative career and she yeah, she's amazing. She works at Golden Panther and she does lots of like tattoos for people who have just received top surgery and amazing people who have had breast cancer and things like that, so I think she has a really beautiful story to tell as well. Yeah, her name is Naomi Pearl, so keep your eyes tuned, I reckon, and your ears, because, yeah, she's doing some amazing stuff actually. So very cool. 
 
21:14 - Alexis (Host)
Beautiful. Stacey Ann, thank you so much for joining us, my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. 

04 | Being Your Own Hype Person with James Swell

In this upbeat episode of 'Through the Creative Door,' Alexis engages in a heartfelt conversation with guest James Swell, Perth musician, artist and lover of model making, delving deep into the labyrinth of creativity. Together, they peel back the layers of the creative process, navigating the twists and turns of self-critique and self-celebration.
 
James reflects on his musical journey, sharing moments of pride, such as the creation of an original EP with his band, Brass Party, and the exhilaration of witnessing people connect with their unique music. 
 
Overcoming self-doubt, and embracing unique creative expressions can be a windy road, so join us as we listen to James share personal experiences, and valuable lessons that remind us to celebrate and share one's creative spark with the world.
 
If you’d like to see more, you can follow James  on instagram @jamesswellsax OR @brasspartyperth 
 
This episode was recorded on 18 October 2023 on the lands of the Wajuk Peoples. We hope this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode. Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
 
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
 
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
 
---------------------------------------
 
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door. 
Welcome, James. 
 
00:49 - Alexis (Host)
Welcome, James. 
 
00:50 - James (Guest)
Thanks Alexis,  thanks for having me. 
 
00:52 -  Alexis (Host)
Thank you so much for coming and chatting and welcoming me into this beautiful space of yours. 
 
01:05 
I see lots of things around this room. They're all very creative. Thank you, I already knew that you were a very talented, multi-talented bear, but just visually I'm seeing all of the things and I'm sure there's more. 
 
01:18 - James (Guest)
Yeah, hidden away in drawers somewhere, she talented bear kind of sounds like a grinder handle. 
 
01:24 - Alexis (Host)
Oh no, I didn't mean to say that I like it. I like it, oh dear, oh dear. Alexis is getting cancelled. Now I'm very curious, and I've asked everyone this question, which is you know? I mean, we all have different creative spaces for different things, but what does a creative space mean to you? 
 
01:48 - James (Guest)
Yeah, it's a good question. 
 
01:49
I mean, I feel like your creative space can just be like anywhere that you do your creating, but for me, I'm definitely prone to getting distracted, so which I mean like I don't know, maybe having all of the things possible in one room isn't the best way to deal with that. But, like, for me, having a space where I can just sit down and go you know, this is where I do it, this is where the magic happens is really important, because it's kind of like you know they say that like if you spend lots of time in bed when you're not sleeping, then your brain starts to associate the bed with being awake, so you don't sleep as well there. So if you've got a room that you can just go, like this is like my dedicated space where I do whatever my thing is then when I sit down in the chair, it's like it's go time, like I can instantly sort of slip into that mode. I find having that space just kind of set aside is really important and as free from distractions as possible to be. 
 
02:48 - Alexis (Host)
I mean, in this day and age we've got a little computer in our pockets that distracts us. 
 
02:55 - James (Guest)
Yeah, the phone's the biggest attention killer. 
 
02:58 - Alexis (Host)
Oh my goodness, it's shocking For those who are listening you have in this room some amazing Lego models. I am such a fan of Lego I'm showing for those who don't know, my mum's Filipino and Asian mums tend to, I don't know be pretty rigid with certain things and I don't know why, but mine was. I never got Lego. 
 
03:28 - James (Guest)
That's an interesting restriction, I guess. 
 
03:31 - Alexis (Host)
I don't know. Maybe it was because it's very expensive, Maybe it was yeah, I don't know. 
 
03:36 - James (Guest)
I mean it's not cheap as far as little bits of plastic go. 
 
03:39 - Alexis (Host)
True, and they get everywhere and they're like mm, mm, mm. 
 
03:44 - James (Guest)
I saw a show at the Rechabite recently, the Yuck Circus, lots of acrobatics and circus tricks, but they did a test of endurance where someone spilled Lego across the floor and then walked barefoot across it and it was harrowing stuff. 
 
04:01 - Alexis (Host)
I almost feel like I'd want to pick hot coals. Yeah, almost. 
 
04:06 - James (Guest)
At least that's something to brag about. I mean, we've all stepped on Lego and hurt, that's true, but yeah, no, I love it. I feel like it's probably one of those early creative endeavors that I got into, because my dad and I always used to make stuff out of Lego just a big old box of loose parts. 
 
04:24 - Alexis (Host)
That's so cool. I love that. Yeah, well, you have some very cool ones here. I'm very jealous. Maybe after this, maybe you can let me play, oh absolutely. 
 
04:34 - James (Guest)
I go for pushability, which is an important factor apparently. 
 
04:40 - Alexis (Host)
Well, in this room I also see I mean digital artwork, I see physical artwork, I see lots of different modeling and for a lot of people we would actually see the outer side of what you do, like work, wise being, you know, playing on your saxophone and like doing all the musical stuff. I guess it might be a difficult question to ask, but what's something that you're proud of in that creative space, a body of work, and how did it come about? 
 
05:14 - James (Guest)
Yeah, I mean, a lot of people would probably know me more from doing music than anything else. Like, a lot of this stuff is just my hobby, which is great. Good to have a creative outlet. That's not, you know, all work, but one of my projects that I'm proudest of is Brass Party. 
 
05:29
So a lot of people a lot of people know us from you know late night sets at the Ello (Ellington Jazz Club) and just like pumping out the covers. But last year we started working on a whole bunch of original music which we recorded with Kieran Kenderese, who's an amazing sound engineer, and we are putting that EP out into the world. Finally, but that's probably one of the things I'm proudest of creatively, because I feel like we spent so long like brewing this sort of creative mix as a band where everyone had their own influences that they brought together and we all sort of set it on things that, like I know, excited us equally. And then, after all this time of like just finding those influences, we finally went like well, you know, let's put them all in the melting pot and see what we come out with. And we came out with something that like felt like all of those, those party tunes and those kind of nostalgic pop punk or, you know, scar punk bangers that we grew up listening to. 
 
06:30 - Alexis (Host)
Well, for someone who's watched you guys perform, I can vouch for that. I definitely can vouch for that. 
 
06:37 - James (Guest)
Yeah, I mean, you know, Alexis, obviously one of the number one height people always out the front screaming getting the dance floor going. 
 
06:46 - Alexis (Host)
I mean any opportunity to get on a dance floor. Let's be honest, yeah, yeah. 
 
06:50 - James (Guest)
But no, that's like the most exciting thing about that music is watching people enjoy it and the fact that we were able to like not obviously like a lot of a lot of people love covers. They love hearing covers, especially in Perth. But then being able to get that same excitement from people with something that, like we created, you know, whole cloth ourselves, that was. That was an amazing feeling. Because anytime you try you know, I'm sure you know anytime you try a new music, even if it's just a new song or it's like a whole reinvention of your style, you're just like, oh, is this going to flop? Is everyone going to hate this? 
 
07:26 - Alexis (Host)
It is. I mean whether it is music or art or or a poem or a recipe, I don't know. I do think that you know there's an element of vulnerability that I don't know about you, but I don't think you ever get immune to that. Yeah, yeah. 
 
07:48 - James (Guest)
Absolutely yeah, like I mean, I've been I've been performing for so long that like stage fright isn't really a thing for me anymore. But putting out a brand new piece of work, especially one that's like, it's kind of like bearing your soul You're going this is something that I enjoy, it's so important to me, and putting it out there and going like just laying it out for other people's opinion yeah, yeah. 
 
08:12
It kind of. It's hard to divorce that from like being judged as a person Like this. This is I mean not not that my fun dandy pop tunes are really that much of like my soul laid bare but, it's like this is something that's important to me. No, so yeah, it's nerve-wracking.
 
08:27 - James (Guest)
But yeah, I'm so happy with how it all turned out. 
 
08:30 - Alexis (Host)
And you guys should be so proud. It's very, very, very cool. 
 
08:33 - James (Guest)
Very danceable, hopefully, oh yeah, oh yeah. 
 
08:37 - Alexis (Host)
I guess on the flip side of that, like you just mentioned, you know you've been creating or had the creative bug for your whole life. Do you reckon that there's been something that has challenged you creatively and what do you reckon that lesson, or major lesson, was about that? 
 
08:56 - James (Guest)
Yeah, I was first properly pursuing music as a potential career when I was studying, studying music at WAAPA. We kind of taught to be self critical to you know, look at what you're doing and and, I guess, analyze it, which is it's a very, it's a very cerebral kind of take on the creative process. But you know, if you don't, if you don't, critique yourself, you can never really grow and improve. But that couple with, like, my inherent kind of anxiety and my like the way my personality is, I frequently was just coming away from gigs feeling absolutely drained and completely down on myself and my creative output and while I was trying to play like it would be so bad that that internal critic would be going, you know, just going, constantly going oh that was crap, that was stupid, like it's so much worse than everyone else on this stage and obviously that's not a helpful thing in the moment or in general. I think Some people may be able to like look at themselves that frankly and go yeah, and disassociate themselves from the. 
 
10:18
Yeah, and be able to critique what they're doing in, I guess, a more objective way. But for me that level of self reflection was just completely unhelpful and it kind of sounds so funny to say. But I almost just had this one decision where I'm like either I need to stop doing that or and be able to enjoy my music, or I need to find a different career, because the self-critique was absolutely just getting in the way of being able to create. And it's in hindsight it feels like such an easy fix to just go well, I'm going to enjoy myself now, I'm not going to let that worry me and obviously like
 
11:02 - Alexis (Host)
But clearly like, hat would have taken a process and a time. You know it's easy for us to do a synopsis of what that learning means. 
 
11:09 - James (Guest)
I mean hindsight, probably years of work went into it, but yeah no, after that I really like made an effort to enjoy being in the moment when I was performing and to not critique myself as much, because if I hate what I'm doing, why should I expect anyone else to enjoy it? And I guess the biggest takeaway, the lesson that I got from that and it's something that I try and pass on to like students, because obviously I teach people to play music now, which is amazing, like it's this. You know it has its hard times, but it's so fulfilling to when you get to see some Passing the baton on yeah when you see people developing that joy. 
 
11:50
The thing that I really learned from that was there are a lot of people who will tell you you're crap. You know people don't hold back on that but there are far fewer people who will tell you you're amazing and go into bat for you 100%. So you don't need to be one of the critics. There are plenty of people who can fill that role. You do need to be your own advocate. You need to be, you know you need to be supportive of yourself. 
 
12:19 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, you need to be part of your own team. 
 
12:23 - James (Guest)
Be your own hype squad. 
 
12:24 - Alexis (Host)
You're pit crew. 
 
12:37 
I'm intrigued. Is there anything like an object or a thing that you can't live without when you're creating? 
 
12:39 - James (Guest)There's going to be a really boring answer, but I actually don't think there is no. I mean, I'm a very sentimental person, but I feel like. I feel like I mean it might just be that I've got so many different creative outlets, which is why I think this is going to be a difficult question to answer. 
 
12:56
There's not any single one thing, but I mean the saxophone that I have here sitting on it's stand. That is the same saxophone that I've been playing on since, I think, 2005. So I played that since primary school, yeah, since I, like my parents, were like we're not going to buy you a saxophone, you're just starting this instrument, you know, don't be daft, yeah, it's a sensible choice.
 
13:22 - Alexis (Host)
I think it is yeah. 
 
13:25 - James (Guest)
But when I started doing it I really enjoyed it. Like, all right, we'll buy you a saxophone and I got this one and yeah, I've been playing it ever since and I think it's kind of like your instrument in a way, and I mean, like the specific you know metal and cork thing that you're playing is part of your voice as a creator. You know the peculiarities and the little unique things that it has. They make your sound what it is. And so, yeah, I don't think I would be creating in the same way if I didn't have it so thanks, Mum and Dad Good investment
 
14:03 - Alexis (Host)
Well, I mean, they delayed on buying you that investment, but you know it was very wise of the parents. 
 
14:13 - James (Guest)
Yes but oh, 18 years old now, I think that sax, yeah, it's doing good. Yeah, it's doing good been through a lot. Yeah, to an extent also, just having it like on a sax stand is super helpful because I can just be doing some admin and listening to some some tunes and just go like I want to play. I was be able to pick it up and noodle for a little bit. 
 
14:37 - Alexis (Host)
I've always found that myself. So I'm not a guitar player at all, but I do have one and I do find that just purely having the instrument readily available for you just pick up and have a little tinkle and then put it back down. I know a lot can be said for having your toys out yeah, really available to play with. 
 
15:00 - James (Guest)
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, it's not. You could just put your voice down and, you know, not have it easily accessible. True, I'm definitely the sort of person who like sings. All the time I'm just walking around going like, (scatting)
 
15:18 - Alexis (Host)
I tend to do that. And I don't even realize that I and I have been called out for it, where I've been asked a question and perhaps, maybe, serenaded that person back with the answer. I don't even realize I'm doing it. Yeah, not my finest of moments.
 
15:36 - James (Guest)
Let me answer your question with a song. No see, I got called out for it for an entirely different reason, because I was walking along. I'm just scatting this like happy little jazz tune and someone walks by and like “Stop singing. You're making me realize how miserable”
 
15:51 - James (Guest)
Oh my gosh, that sounds like a you problem. 
 
15:57 - James (Guest)
Wow, cool, don't be happy. That's the takeaway, kids. 
 
16:00 - Alexis (Host)
Well, speaking of takeaways, I'm curious what if you had, if you could give one piece of advice, what would it be? 
 
16:11 - James (Guest)
I mean, I definitely think each person, I think, has a unique creative thing they can bring to the world. It doesn't have to be something that's traditionally defined. 
 
16:21 - Alexis (Host)
It can be creative food, it could be the way you cook. Yeah, so many different ways for us to create. 
 
16:29 - James (Guest)
Yeah, and self critiquing your way out of sharing that with the world is a pretty sad thing. I think all of us need to be more proudly excited about, about our hobbies and about the things that, the passions that spark joy. Yeah. Does it spark joy? Yeah, and because there are so many people who will tell you that you're crap and that your gift isn't worth sharing. But if you don't share it, if you don't, you'll never find those people who enjoy it. 
 
17:02 - Alexis (Host)
Amen, brother Amen. 
 
17:05 - James (Guest)
So preachy 
 
17:08 - Alexis (Host)
It is true. It is true, but very well said. 
 
17:11 - James (Guest)
Thank you. 
 
17:12 - Alexis (Host)
I think, even hearing that for myself, it's always nice to have someone remind you that, yeah, we need to back ourselves well and truly. 
 
17:27 - James (Guest)
I think it's a rare gift now that we have. I mean, like, for all the harm the internet's done, you know being incredibly distracting, it has let people find their audiences and find like their tribe, like you can be like making a little webcomic for an audience of 30 people who you would never have met before, but they're exactly the kind of weird that you are. Or you've got like a style of music that you could never fill a pub with people who would come listen to it, but they can hear online. I think that's one great thing about the internet, which itself, I guess, is kind of a creative space. 
 
18:08 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, for sure. 
 
18:10 - James (Guest)
Is that you can find your people and you can find the audience for your own. You know your own style, in whatever way that is. 
 
18:20 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, I'd agree. Well said, One last question. Yes, who would you want to hear answer these questions If you could have anyone come through and be on the podcast? Who would they be and why? 
 
18:38 - James (Guest)
Have you had Kirsty from Sgt. Hulka yet? 
 
18:41 - Alexis (Host)
I have not. 
 
18:45 - James (Guest)
She's a very multi, multi talented bear as well. 
 
18:48 - Alexis (Host)
She's a multi talented bear. 
 
18:51 - James (Guest)
Amazing muso, amazing Mum. 
 
18:53 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, she's a. What do they say? She's got her fingers in all the pies. James, thank you so much for joining me. 
 
19:03 - James (Guest)
Thanks so much, Alexis, this has been treat. 
 

03 | It’s Never Too Late To Begin Your Journey with EDM Producer Fran

In this episode, Alexis engages in an honest and inspiring conversation with Fran, a Perth EDM producer, songwriter and newly found filmmaker, exploring the journey of artistic evolution and how it’s never too late to learn a new skill. 
 
They delve into Fran's personal creative havens, from her transformation of a space into a music studio to her shift towards bringing joy through music. Fran shares pivotal moments, including her proudest musical accomplishments and a transformative awakening that redirected her creative focus from alleviating suffering to spreading joy.
 
The conversation highlights the essence of collaboration and the joy and importance of shared creativity, touching upon the tools artists use and the invaluable patience required in pursuing their passion. Fran's insights underscore the importance of cherishing the creative process and finding fulfilment in what truly drives artistic expression.
 
If you’d like to see more, you can follow Fran on instagram @gottalovefran
 
This episode was recorded on 16 October 2023 on the lands of the Wajuk Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
 
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
 
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
 
---------------------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door. 
 
00:48 - Alexis (Host)
Thank you so much, Fran, for coming and having a chat with me. I am so chuffed to have you grace me with your presence to be able to do the Through the Creative Door. For those who obviously can't see because they're listening on this on a podcast, you gave me a little sneak peek of two of your creative spaces today in your beautiful home, one which is around this phenomenal grand piano and the other being where you create all your beautiful EDM music in another space. I guess my first question would be which, obviously, being in your home, I get to see those two beautiful spaces, but I'm curious what does a creative space mean to you? 
 
01:30 - Fran (Guest)
Well, I feel really blessed with this space here because this room technically is the library slash piano room. So I feel really blessed that there's this particular space. I think I would really struggle to try and create in a space that also had a television in it. It's hard to explain, but it would be very difficult, even with the same other instruments and everything in here, just having a TV room. It wouldn't work. 
 
02:06 - Alexis (Host)
I can empathise with that. I've always gone or lent to having a space where I have my creative instruments, in a room or in a space that doesn't have a TV or is less of a lounge room. 
 
02:23 - Fran (Guest)
The second space that I showed you, not this room with the piano in it. That's relatively new as a set up space. I only had the studio desk put in when I would have been in the last six weeks or so. Yeah, before that it was more an office than a studio. So now it's more a studio than an office. 
 
02:52 - Alexis (Host)
So, before you set up that very new set up, where was your creative space? Or did you have a creative space, a different space that wasn't at home, when you were doing your sort of electronic music and creating? 
 
03:09 - Fran (Guest)
I still had a keyboard that I could attach to my computer and it was still in the same room, but it didn't have the same vibe. The way it would work would be I just had a regular desk that wasn't designed for a keyboard and I had the keyboard on a stand to the right. So I'd be turning away from the computer to work on the keyboard if I was doing that. So it just it wasn't and it wasn't, so it wasn't as pleasurable a space to be in. So, I like the way that that little space is set up to be a lot more pleasurable, I guess. 
 
03:57 - Alexis (Host)
I don't know about you, but I definitely think it helps having a grounded, supportive space to sit into the creativity. 
 
04:10 - Fran (Guest)
Yeah, I agree, I agree entirely. 
 
04:13 - Alexis (Host)
I love that. I feel really fortunate that I actually met you through recommendation actually from Western Oz, from Will and Sandy, and then, yeah, we've had a chance to work together, I hope the start of many collaborations. But I'm curious what, obviously your career is going to be long-standing, but at this point in time, is there a body of work or a collaboration or one track that you're the most proud of at this point? 
 
04:57 - Fran (Guest)
It changes all the time as to which one I like the most. There are two tracks that I really really love, and one track is actually become part of the film score for the film that I'm now doing and that's called Rainbow. And it's funny because in the film score it's actually just the music part, so the vocals are removed, but it's the actual song that I like the best about that particular song, and I'm wondering what to do about it when that movie comes out. Do I release the actual song or just the instrumental, or how does all that work? And it's a bit of a surprise, I haven't released it. And the other song that I'm really liking at the moment is a song that I've written fairly recently called my Mechanical Heart, and I really like. What a great name. Yeah, it's just a really different song. So, yeah, I like it. 
 
06:01 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, I'm excited to hear these. I haven't heard them. 
 
06:05 - Alexis (Host)
I guess, on the flip side of things that you're proud of and we've had a bit of a chat off the recording about life and things but has there been something that's challenged you in a way that it's affected your creativity, and do you think there's a big lesson or a major lesson that you've learnt from that? 
 
06:34 - Fran (Guest)
Yeah, I think it's been more the other way around. So I've been working at music for six years. So it's been about six years since I decided to start to learn to produce, and I think that what happened was I had not a midlife crisis. I'd call it a midlife awakening. That's what happened. 
 
07:00 - Alexis (Host)
How beautiful. 
 
07:01 - Fran (Guest)
I love that. So I had become very physically ill and things were not looking very good for me physically at the time and also with work, which I still love. I was spending a huge amount of time and I guess the purpose of my work, as I saw it and still do, was to relieve the suffering of the people that I was assisting. That was and is my day job, to do that. And what happened was when I was doing that, all the time I became more and more astute at noticing suffering and suddenly I was seeing suffering everywhere, to the point that it got, that was almost all I was seeing, you know. And I had this thought what if I could? Instead of relieving suffering, I was bringing joy. What about that? And that was part of the music journey. 
 
08:06 - Fran (Guest)
And then I said to myself well, what really makes me happy? You know when, in my whole life, what made me happiest? And I just went back in my mind to thinking about when I was a little kid and I used to sort of just sort of run around singing these little songs to myself, these funny little songs, which I probably continued to do until at some point you get a bit pre-teen or teenage and you get all awkward and embarrassed and then you stop all of that and never did it again. So I thought, well, maybe because I love that so much, maybe that's what I want to develop. And what has happened as a byproduct of that which I think is wonderful is that now I see joy. Now I see all these little blissful glimmers all over the place, much more so than seeing suffering. It's like my focus is now on joy, if that makes sense. 
 
09:08 - Alexis (Host)
It's so interesting because when I initially worded these questions, I never really knew how the answers would come. And yeah, that's just such a beautiful way in which it's a challenge has also like which I think art does turns into these beautiful flowers for us, yeah, and we get to. Yeah, bloom and share. 
 
09:31 - Fran (Guest)
I have to say I was so surprised and pleased when I heard that you'd come to me by recommendation. Yes, really stunned because I think our collab I've done more since, but at that time your collab with me was the very first collab that I've ever really I've done collabs, but the first one that I've ever been the primary Producer in a song and it was super exciting. And I was so excited when you suggested to me to do it and I go, oh, I'm not sure what I can do and then I sent you a piece of music that I thought might we could work with and you said, yeah, that'd be great. That was. It was such an exciting project. I'm really looking forward to it finishing coming out. 
 
10:22 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, I can't wait for it to come out and for everyone to hear it. It's um, it's interesting they say that because I decided a few years ago that I wanted to do more and more collaborations with lots of different people, and there's something about the joy of sharing those experiences with somebody else. I mean, for me, I work with lots of different people in my creative space, from dances to different producers and things like that but there's something really nice about the collab experience. It's pretty, pretty special to be able to create this little flower. Yeah, I want to the world together. It's really nice. 
 
11:10 - Fran (Guest)
Super, super happy without went.
 
11:12 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, I'm so excited. Yeah, go wait for everyone to hear it. Yeah, we're going to be released. It's so good. I suppose that this next question is going to be interesting because, depending on which room it might have, maybe it's a different answer. I don't know. But do you have anything, do you have any objects or a thing that you can't create without? 
 
11:44 - Fran (Guest)
Yes, now I have and it's a technical piece, but I'll tell you about it now I have a thing called a Kaotica eyeball that I've popped over the top of my mic and that. 
 
12:01 - Alexis (Host)
For those listening, explain it a little bit more. 
 
12:04 - Fran (Guest)
I know what you're talking about well normally what would happen if you were in a big studio, you'd go into a vocal booth and you'd have this sort of little soundproofy kind of room that you would sing in, and I don't have that luxury, so it's almost like a little vocal booth for your microphone. So instead of putting all of everything into a booth, I've got a microphone that's Got its own little foamed booth around it. And that works fairly well, so yeah.
 
12:35 - Alexis (Host)
I tend to see and I know for some of my producer friends around the world. They advocate for them. They all use them as well and they love them. So you're in a good group. 
 
12:52 - Fran (Guest)
Yeah, well, I've heard, I've heard some of the producers I know have been on tour and, you know, had the tour bus and all that and they've been able to make songs, sing songs in while on a tour bus using one of those, which is pretty amazing. 
 
13:08 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, oh, they're amazing, they're so good. 
 
13:11 - Fran (Guest)
They're not cheap, though, for a piece of foam.
 
13:13 - Alexis (Host)
No, to be fair, in our industry, when is any of the toys and the things that we buy cheap? They're not so cheap. Never, never. It's interesting I was thinking about this the other day about the long list of quote-unquote toys that we buy ourselves to create, which sometimes I think we just we, you know at a certain point in our careers we can only afford a certain thing, and then you sort of go up and up from there, and other times I just think the library of toys that we get just gets bigger and bigger. Always put it in the same perspective, I think, as, like a tradie, it's like at the start of their career they only have X amount of tools and then by the end they have this big trailer for ladders and all sorts of things. 
 
14:08 - Fran (Guest)
It's true, but you get an expert tradie and they can probably get by with pretty much any tool. 
 
14:16 - Alexis (Host)
That's true, but it's pretty nice to have all the bits and pieces to play with. Oh, it's pretty fun to create. 
 
14:23 - Fran (Guest)
It's wonderful. Yeah, I think it's great. 
 
14:26 - Alexis (Host)
I'm curious. I mean I know that you know we all take lots of different nuggets of advice and bits of information that sits with us through our careers. But if you could give any creative one nugget, one bit of wisdom or advice, what would that be? 
 
14:50 - Fran (Guest)
Well, I think that doing something you really love gives you an enormous amount of pleasure and it's worthwhile, really worthwhile. I also think you've got to be incredibly patient with it. You know, here I am six years in. 
 
15:06 - Alexis (Host)
Six years, the start of a very long career. Yeah, but never too late to start. 
 
15:13 v
Yeah, but I think people think it's going to be very quick. It's not quick, it takes a lot of time. How long for you now? 
 
15:21 - Alexis (Host)
Over three decades. I've been doing music. My whole life. 
 
15:26 - Fran (Guest)
From the womb clearly. 
 
15:28 - Alexis (Host)
Well, my mum's Filipino, so music's in their blood. That is very, very good advice. I think that makes it a long time between wins if you don't enjoy where you are and the process of just creating right?
 
15:51 - Fran (Guest)
Yeah, that's what I love the most actually, and that's probably why everything falls down for me, because I'm not into any of the marketing, I'm not particularly into live performance, I'm not into anything like that, but the actual creating I love. 
 
16:06 - Alexis (Host)
Last but not least, I have one more question. If you could hear anyone come onto this podcast and answer these questions, who would it be and why? 
 
16:18 - Fran (Guest)
I'd be curious what Bjork would say. You know, I think her answers would be really, really interesting, and Aurora. I would love to hear what Aurora has to say. That would be very, very interesting as well. 
 
16:38 - Alexis (Host)
Yes, Fran, thank you so much for chatting with me and letting us come into your little creative spaces. Yeah, thanks, so much. 
 
16:52 - Fran (Guest)
Thanks for having me.

02 | Staying True to Your Creative Vision with Josh Wells

Join host Alexis Naylor in a candid conversation with Perth photographer, videographer, and creator of the Youtube series, the Stirling Songwriters Club, Josh Wells. 
 
They explore beyond photography, touching upon the complexities of film versus digital imagery, the significance of embracing imperfections, and the art of being a multifaceted individual beyond just one's craft. 
 
Tune in to take a peek in the mind of a passionate artist, exploring the intricacies of creativity, inspiration, and the profound depth of human expression. A compelling and insightful episode that resonates with both budding and seasoned creators on their own artistic journeys.
 
If you’d like to see more, you can follow Josh on instagram @joshwellsphotography
 
This episode was recorded on 8 October 2023 on the lands of the Wajuk Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
 
Creative references from Josh:
Books: 
Susan Sontag On Photography
Stephen Shore - Uncommon Places
Alex Soth - Sleeping By The Mississippi
Newton - Riviera
Gregory Heisler - 50 Portraits
Annie Leibowitz - any of her books
Dan Winters - Road To Seeing
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
 
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel