11 | Don’t Stay In The Waiting Place with Craig Johnston

Alexis sits down with Craig Johnston (aka Delsinki) a Melbourne-based musician and creator/producer of Keep the Circle Unbroken and Sing A Song of Sixpence. They discuss overcoming perfectionism, why it’s okay to let go and release work even if it’s not “perfect,” and the importance of keeping momentum instead of getting stuck in “the waiting place.”

Craig shares insights from his own experience, including the idea that prolific creators like Picasso made thousands of works, not all famous, but all part of the process. They also talk about how the act of creating often brings more fulfilment than the finished product, and why creativity is essential to who we are.

If you’re a creative feeling stuck or unsure, this episode offers encouragement and practical wisdom to keep pushing forward. 

 

If you’d like to see more, you can follow Craig on instagram; @ delsinki

 

This episode was recorded on 30th April 2025 on the lands of the Woiworung Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.

Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.

Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor

 

…

Creative resources from Craig:

Book: The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron 

 

Let’s get social:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 

TikToc: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast

 

CREDITS

Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor

Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel

Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel

 

 Hello, my name is Alexis Nailer, and I am your host here at Through The Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. May we pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge elders past and present. On this podcast, I'll be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. I am delighted to welcome you to Through the Creative Door.

 

Craig. Oh my goodness. I am super chuffed that you have come through the creative door. Well, you come through my door. But we're gonna talk about your door in a literal sense. 

 

Very good. Very good. Well, thank you for having me. It's nice to be here. 

 

You are such a talented musician and you have such a repertoire a, a amazing career thus far. Not to put a stop to it, it's gonna keep going, but you're also, uh, a facilitator in so many ways. You organize some amazing events. Um, there's two in particular the keep the Circle. Is that? Yep. 

 

Keep the circle on Broken. Yeah. Keep um, 

 

yeah. Yeah. And then the other one that I loved, I just love the name 'cause it reminds me of, um, uh, like children's books.

 

Yeah. Yeah. 

 

Singer a song of sixepnce. Yeah, yeah, 

 

yeah. I love that. 

 

Yeah. 

 

Um, yeah, so it's just so lovely that you are putting back into community as well as obviously having your amazing career as well.

 

 Oh, you're very kind to say. Well, yeah, those two shows were born out of the lockdown. Really. The first one, keep the Circle Unbroken was just a brainchild of, of, I played in a band, it's, it's pretty defunct now, actually row Jerry Crow because two of the band members, um, have passed on. But yeah, the fiddle player, John Kendall sort of said it. We were having like a Zoom chat, the six of us talking about recording and whatnot during the lockdown, and John said, gee, wouldn't it be good to do.

 

You know, like this, he'd just been watching the Nitty Gritty Dirt band Doco, uh, on SBS when he told I hadn't seen it. And then when he told me basically what it was, I just, my brain went rolling because no one was working. So the catalyst, I guess, was I called Tim Rogers and just sort of said, this is what we think you're doing, would you be involved?

 

And then he said, yes. And after the, that everybody having Tim involved meant that everybody else, I think everybody would've been involved anyway, but just having that, sometimes you need someone to, yeah, you need a monthly name. Yeah, that's right. So. And then, you know, we did the show at, um, at Memo Music Hall, which we had no rehearsal, we just all rocked up on the day.

 

There was, I think probably maybe 25 to 30 musicians and artists involved, and we recorded an album. In hindsight, we should have done it backwards. We didn't know we were gonna do a regional tour, so we did the show at Memo went really well. I applied for a grant and then we wound up doing this 16 date regional tour in March of 2021.

 

Yeah, it was just this really kind of accidental, magical thing that happened because. In all the other months or over two years, basically, we were locked down at certain points for X amount of weeks or days or whatever. But that month we didn't get locked down, so we were able to actually do the 16 dates, uh, apart from one or two where we'd lost our guitarist Dion.

 

Uh, he passed away after one of the gigs and Bundy Hall. Um, but yeah, and then the singer Song of sixpence one, was the same sort of thing again, it was just, we were just coming out of lockdown and we did a summer series and a winter series. Same deal, 16 date, a regional tour on both. So 32 dates and, and weirdly, the first one, the first thing of summer six months was, you know, really well attended.

 

I don't think anybody got COVID. It was all pretty straightforward. But the second one was like the winter one. It was just every second artist had COVID and people pulling out. And it was, it was really hard, the, the second one. But it was really good. And I think the, the sense of community was a really, the, the best thing that came out of it was really.

 

Not even for the audiences who were watching, it was more for the artists just to be playing again 'cause no one had done any gigs or, or, you know, over a big, big chunk of time. 

 

One of the little write-ups about that sort of show series. There was a beautiful quote I think that you said, and I wrote it down 'cause it just, it really solidified such a beautiful message.

 

It's like in a world that seems to beat each other's throats every other second and not listening to each other. We wanted to create a musical message that would inspire everybody to stop and reflect on what's important in life. 

 

Yeah, I just thought that was, yeah. A great circling of Yeah, those kind of shows and representing what you are, what you've been doing.

 

Yeah. And it was, it was good. It was, and obviously too, it sort of opened up my musical community, like to lots of people that I, 'cause you'd book somebody like Sarah Carroll for argument's sake, and Sarah Carroll would say, oh, there's this fantastic bluegrass guy down in, you know, Terrang. And then all of a sudden you're meeting all these other people just through other people.

 

And it was really good too. Putting people together. That's one thing I actually really do get a kick out of is sort of, for want of a better word, curating things like looking at people's personalities and styles and seeing who would, you know, suit who fit each other. Yeah. Who would,

 

It's like a puzzle piece.

 

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, and sometimes you'll put one curve ball in and then that'll be like the best part of, you know, the collaboration of, of people. So yeah, it was good. Mm. Beautiful. Um, yeah, I'm really, um. I'm really glad that that happened in a way like that wouldn't have happened, had COVID. 'cause I mean a lot of people obviously had some, you know, there was very mixed experiences for the whole lockdown thing here in Victoria.

 

Um, some people loved it. Some people hated it. But for me, I do kind of go, I have that to thank for those projects. 'cause had we not had those lockdowns. Those projects wouldn't have happened. So, you know. 

 

Yeah. And especially when, you know, I mean, I'm not sure what was happening with your Delsinki project at that time. Mm. You know, it's nice to evolve and, and go through and Yeah. How amazing that it was an opportunity for you to see a skill and like an area where, you know, yeah, you got to develop more. Wow. Yeah. How wonderful 

 

it was.

 

And everyone else got to benefit from your, your talent. 

 

Yeah, we all, yeah, I think everybody did have a, a lot of fun. It was, you know, it was all the summer one for, uh, for keep the circle in the summer, six months one. It was Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. So it was like four, four days away, you know, playing venues that they'd not played before. And yeah, it was good. I think everybody did. There was no. There was no, oh, there was a bit of inter band Argie bargie with Rodger Crow for the, but that was our band.

 

Everybody else seemed to have a really great, uh, really great experience. 

 

Would it be a tour without some little bit of argie bargy. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, 

 

yeah. Absolutely. 

 

Now. Let's segue into, and it, I'm guessing this might be a bit different whether you are being a producer and, uh, cultivating shows or doing your own project as a musician, but what does a creative space mean to you and why?

 

Um, I don't know. It's different every time because, you know, I, I, I know I was talking to, I'm working on an album with Brooke Taylor. We've got a side project called The Deserters. We're recording with Mick Thomas at the moment. We've just finished actually. And, uh. Brooke just sort of mentioned about, oh, this is it.

 

This is the last song, you know, I'm gonna miss coming up. Mick lives in summers and I'm gonna miss coming up and being in this space. And, uh, I hadn't thought of it. And then I, and then it made me think of all those times that I've recorded in studios or, you know, spaces or whatever. And, and it is a really, uh, nes it has a nostalgia to it.

 

When you go to leave, you feel very connected to the space. And it's different every time too, depending on the space. Like if you are. Working on something in an area, and sometimes creativity happens in the most random of spaces, but I guess it is good for people to have a creative space, a standalone creative space.

 

I don't actually have that because I've got two young kids. I did have that, and then we had kids and it's like a palava. Our house is just like a junk den. It's like. Look, our house looks like we've been robbed all the time 

 

With two little children. Yeah. 

 

so yeah, having access to something like that in the future is, is, you know, just a little way down the road for me. Yeah. 

 

And so when you had to give up or just compromise and obviously having that creative space, like is it more like a mental. Sort of space that you need to be is Well, this to to be able to create at home. 

 

Yeah. So you become this kind of, you become very resilient I think when you've got kids depending, and you go through various stages, of course, but my process, I've always collaborated with people and enjoyed that.

 

But on my first album and my second album, there was probably at least half of the music, if there were 12 songs, a be at least six, that I wrote myself from go to wo. And then six co-writes thereabouts. But with this album, there's 12 songs on it, and this is over the last 12 to 18 months or however long.

 

I've only written two songs from go to woe myself, and 10 of them are collaborations. So what is working for me at the moment with the kids, it's like an idea. You know, we, we've always got these sort of random ideas, voice, memo, whatever, and then it's, or a lyric or whatever, and then it's sending it to someone.

 

And then they give something back. And it's almost like one of those puzzles where you draw a piece and then you fold it over and somebody adds a bit and you know, yeah. You get to the bottom and you go, what have we got here? Is this, oh my God, it's a, you know, Dr. Frankenstein's monster, or it's, or it's like, no, this is good.

 

You know? So I found momentum in really leaning into collaboration, and I think if I were to try and over the last. Year or two, try and create something just on my own in the space that I'm in. I don't think I would've been able to do it. So, so yeah. I think having a creative space is, you know, really important for the process of being able to be let your brain be free and not have any kind of.

 

Questions or just someone talking at you the whole time. But yeah, 

 

Wanting a snack. Morning. Now, I feel like we've only just touched the surface of obviously the collaborations you've done. You've done all sorts of side projects and work with amazing people. Is there a body of work or something that you're most proud of creating?

 

Yeah, I, I would probably say this album, the, the, the, the latest album. Um, because I did it with the band, the Quiet Coachman, which is the, I've always sort of just recorded with all different people. And with this album we tried to keep just the, those guys doing the bulk of the work. And, uh, there's a horn player, a trombone player called James McCullough.

 

He wrote, wrote and arranged some standalone songs, some instrumentals on this album. And it's sort of given it a real theme and, uh, being that all the other tracks have. Brass arranged by him and Justin Fino throughout. It's got this real kind of, I've been using the analogy of a scene out of Russell Crowe, uh, what's called Gladiator.

 

Mm. Which sounds dumb, but, um. There's a scene where Russell Crow, where he says they're not sure they're all in the coliseum and they're not sure what's about to happen. And Russell Crow says, you know, who he's been in the Army and a few put up the hands. He says, we've got a better chance of surviving whatever comes out these doors if we stick together.

 

It's also a good analogy for artists in general, these songs. My point being, these songs on this album, uh, really do work as a whole from go to woe. So from, from, you know, listening to track one all the way through to track 12 in order it feels good. So, yeah, so I'm proud of that and especially in the day and age of, um, you know, just singles or people just, you know, sort of maybe not listening to, you know, a body of work and just listening to little bits and pieces here and there.

 

So, you know, and I, there's probably gonna be a huge portion of people that will never listen to this album from go to woe, and that's cool. It is what it is, but, you know, if, if you do, I feel like it's a, a good piece. So, yeah, I guess that's probably my most proud. I mean, I've, you know, I'm proud of all. I don't think I've put anything out that I go, that I'm horrifically embarrassed by because it is what it is.

 

You know, like you go, that was where I was at that point. So I've, I've done some pretty embarrassing stuff, you know, like, but, but the, my three albums, I feel like they're all, you know, good offerings. I would probably say to, to date that the, the album that I'm putting it now. 

 

Beautiful. I can't wait to hear it.

 

On the flip side of things that you are proud of. Has there been something that's challenged your creativity and is there like a major way that you've sort of like a lesson or like how have you maneuvered through that? 

 

Having kids has probably been not hard. I mean Yeah, hard of course, but as in, yeah, creatively you've got to work around that.

 

You can't sort of, you've gotta be able to multitask. So I guess that in a way, I don't think there's been anything that's happened. Where I guess playing in a band is always that sort of, you know, push and pull for the creative. I had a band called Gretchen Lewis, um, before I did Delsinki and um, yeah, I guess negotiating creativity can be challenging in a band, which is probably why I did started doing Delsinki because that was just a solo project at the start.

 

'cause then I, and I felt really free to just do whatever I wanted. Uh, and I really loved playing with the guys in Gretchen Lewis, and they, all the, their offerings were really excellent. But yeah, I guess that's probably just stock standard for every band, um, you know, with, with personalities in it. But, um, yeah, I don't think there's been anything that, apart from yeah, negotiating, um, family time around creative endeavors.

 

I am lucky that a lot of the touring, I guess, too. We, you know, we get paid to do the gigs and stuff, so I get to that, that can take a priority over the negotiation around family, but the actual creating of a record or an album or something that's, that definitely can't take front and center over family. So, yeah. That, that has been challenging. 

 

Is it, has it surprised you of the challenge there? Or did you sort of come into it expecting it to be. That negotiation and that compromise?

 

Well, people say when you have kids, they go, oh, you, you know, blah, blah, blah. You, you can't prepare. You can't prepare. Mm. Like, you just dunno, like, yeah, like when Guthrie was born, my first, my 8-year-old, I was doing gigs seven nights a week. I was going to the gym five days a week and drinking at gigs and just living my life coming home and, and you know, he was four months old and it was our first kid and, you know, I'd come home and then I'd do a bottle feed and then I'd go to sleep and then I'd wake up at six with. With him and, and George, my wife.

 

And after about four months, I just imploded. Like, and I remember speaking to a psychologist about it and she was like, you know, there's, there's this thing, it was basically exhaustion. She was like, you know, also too, you, you're mourning your former self 'cause you have to change. You can't, you just can't keep doing what you were doing.

 

So I had to do, make some real life adjustments in order to be able to. Function again. So yeah, I guess that was a pretty big challenge. Just couldn't have prepared for it. I mean, I guess I should have just gone, well, you know, I do have to just cut back on certain things like, you know, you can't, you need energy, you need rest, you know, and the sleep, oh my God, you just, yeah.

 

Wow. I didn't know that that was gonna be the case. That was definitely a challenging time in in life, but. You know, you learn from things and then you can grow and, and move forward and, and see the signs later too with, I wasn't seeing the signs early on. 

 

And I guess, um, circling back to, you know, what your therapist was saying, like, because you've never been there before, so you probably don't know what parts to.

 

Let go of Mm. You're trying to just hold onto all of it. Mm mm Until later. Like you said, you see warning signs of, oh, I'm tired, and, you know, family time is this. And yeah. 

 

I'd never had anxiety before and I was, like I said before, I kind of collapsed into a heap. Um, I remember my wife, Georgie's parents came over and said, we'll, you know, we'll they're from Perth and we'll look after.

 

'cause we, we don't have any. Family in Victoria. They looked after Guthrie and we went out to dinner and I'd been going to the gym and deadlifting and there was, you know, it was this sort of, you know, army stuff and, and heavy weights. And I didn't know, I found out later that anything. Neurological or anything, um, that involves your nervous system.

 

If, if you're getting anxiety, the worst thing you can do is lift heavy weights. Like going for a jog is fine. Walking, you know, exercise is fine. Yeah. But don't lift heavy things because it activates your nervous system. Oh, and we went out to dinner and I just remember someone dropped a glass saying, I nearly jumped through the roof.

 

I was just. And I didn't know what was going on, that it was this really bad anxiety that was happening due to just exhaustion and, and me thinking I've gotta go to the gym and lift heavy weights and. Yeah. And that was really the worst thing I could, could've been doing. 

 

I did not know that about heavy lifting and nervous system.

 

Mm. Note to yourself. Mm. Don't go lifting. Don't go lifting. Yeah. Just go. Go for a walk. Just go for a walk. Go for a run. Go for a walk. Yeah, that's good. 'cause I don't like lifting heavy things anyway. Yeah. Yeah. 

 

Something definitely changed too, because I was all about it before Guthrie's Bond. It was all about, you know.

 

He, he doing how heavy you could go or whatever. And then, and now, you know, like a, after he was born, like a year or two later, I look at a 200 kilo barbell and I'd be like, oh, I'll call somebody to give me a hand lift. I'm not gonna try and lift that. You know? 

 

Why would you, why would you do that? Why would you do that?

 

Are you nuts with that? Yeah. 

 

But before, before kids, I was like, yes, come on. 

 

Yeah. Now I know we've spoken a lot about space and headspace, about creativity. But do you have an object or a thing? Maybe it's like sentimental or maybe like it's a special instrument mm-hmm. That you can't live. Without, when you're creating, 

 

I do have little things around my space and I've got a couple of things.

 

Like when Dion passed away, I spoke to his, uh, partner Lisa, and I got a little, uh, cappo from him and another one from Paul who passed and having those as a part of my, 

 

the little anchors, 

 

my little, yeah. So I worked in TV for 10 years before I started. Well, not started doing it before I did music full time.

 

And there was a guy there, Peter Mastriani, who, you know, we did a few short films and bits and pieces together and he passed away. I had his lead, this lead, this black lead, which I still use today, and that was like probably 20 years ago. And I pull it out at gigs and I always, every time I pull it out and I just think of Peter and I think that's good.

 

That's nice. That's so special. Yeah, it does. It keeps the people alive. Alive in your mind. Yeah. 

 

Yeah. They're with you through all your gigs. It's interesting, like some of the people that I've interviewed. Until you actually ask that question about like what an object or thing is. It's like people have something around but they don't it.

 

Yeah, they have it with them, but they, until you ask a question like that, they're not like, oh, actually yeah, I have this, um, ticket from the first concert I ever went with with my dad, and it just sits near my computer and I never really think about it much, but yeah. Yeah. So it's really nice to like circle back and think about those Yeah, those objects.

 

Now you are such a clever bear. So I'm very excited what you're gonna say for my next question. Mm-hmm. If you could give one piece of advice, one nugget of gold to another creative, what would it be? 

 

Putting things out there if you're stuck on something, but you've got this, like I know people who have thrown whole albums in the bin because it's not exactly what they wanted, but sometimes I think it can also work too, to just put it out there and go, it's gone, it's done now, and I can move on.

 

And if you want to circle back to it later and do it differently Sure. Do that. So, I don't know. I think I'd probably say to people I've just been reading, um, I'm trying to think of a Dr. Seuss quote, because I've been reading other places. You'll go to my kids for so long now. I just, every time I read it I'm like, oh my God.

 

This is the blueprint for life, the waiting place. You don't wanna go to the waiting place. No, that's probably the, the bit of advice I'd give. Don't, don't be stuck in the waiting place. Keep moving. 

 

So if we circle back to one of the items that you talked about before about how you know you are proud of all the things that you've created, because it is a slice of time at that moment, and I think sometimes.

 

Sitting in too much of that perfectionism, you do yourself a disservice. 'cause it's not a slice of time. It's like, it's okay. Just put it out there. That is what it's 

 

Well that's the thing. Yeah. I mean I look, I don't know, I do this thing called Rock Academy. It's like a mentoring thing for young musicians and uh, one of the guys who runs it, it's Alan Long and Phil Sobrano.

 

And Phil Sobrano, um, was talking about, I think might have been Picasso. It was some artist and, you know, there's x amount of their pieces of work that are famous. Like I. You know, for argument sake, you know, 10 to 20 pieces that are really famous. They created thousands, tens of thousands of pieces that nobody saw.

 

They just, they just put out there, put out, put out, put out, put out, but didn't sort of strike a chord with, you know, the rest of the world. But keep going, keep putting it out there. It doesn't matter, you know? 'cause Yeah, you're doing it for yourself really. 

 

And I do think you are a lesser person just in, if you're not creating.Like just it's in the doing. 

 

Mm. 

 

That's, you know, well, that's right. Part of it. Right. Oh, look, you know, putting this album out now, the, the creating of it was the bit that was the one. Now it's kind of a pain in the ass. cause you have to do all the promo stuff. Yeah. Promo stuff. It's terrific. I hate it. 

 

But, um, have you ever seen those diagrams where they talk about the best bit of like fulfillment and joy that people get?

 

Mm-hmm. It's like the hardest part sometimes is like obviously the start when you're trying to tug through the idea. Mm-hmm. And then it's like in that, in between when you're in the doing mm-hmm. That is the most fulfillment. Yeah. The most value add. And then when we actually get the quote unquote result mm-hmm.

 

It's actually less. Like impactful. 

 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's right. Yeah. 'cause you're working hard at something. I mean, I guess, you know, you could argue that once you're doing the, the promotional stuff, you're working hard at that, but then it becomes like sales, you know, you're trying to sell things.

 

Yeah. 

 

Whereas when you're creating, it's like, I don't care. Here it is. It's just, I'm just doing this. Yeah. You know? 

 

Amazing. 

 

Yeah. 

 

Beautiful. Now, would you recommend. Any resources, books, videos, courses, if someone wanted to do what you do. 

 

As far as the creative hat goes, The Artist’s Way I reckon is a good one for people as far as the creative process, especially too, if you are in a rut, I think it can be an excellent tool to navigate your way through.

 

That Ru. And then if you put on the producer hat for me, putting together those shows, the Keep Circle and the Six Pen and whatnot, all you need is a telephone. It's all you need and a bit of chutzpah as in get up and go. And I guess it's about, you know, if you are somebody who can't bear the thought of talking to somebody on the phone or whatever, then I guess it's gonna be a bit harder.

 

You could just do text or email or whatever, but it's just. Asking people and putting things together and it's just like, there are no rules. You can just don't ask, don't get. I think that's a good thought for, you know, producing stuff in the way of putting stuff together. Not necessarily music producing, but, um, yeah, I think people think that they've gotta get this qualification or whatever, but to be a producer.

 

But you don't, I mean, we need to dis dis the distinction between, you know, music producer is someone who. Produces albums, and then someone who produces live shows and, you know, puts things together, which is, we are talking the latter. Um, yeah, there's no rules. There's no, I don't think there's a course you need to be able to do.

 

It's just basically, what do you wanna do and how do you want to do it, and what do you need to do, and just basically start doing it. 

 

Well said, well said. Okay. Now one last question. 

 

Yeah. 

 

If you could hear someone come on this podcast and answer these questions, who would it be and why? 

 

I'm always interested in what my buddy Brooke Taylor has to say. So I would say Brooke Taylor. Do you know Brooke Taylor? I 

 

do, yeah, I do. 

 

So, um, she's that Emily South and our Parkinson's sort of, they're all, so you probably knew each other back in the Elwood days of, what was that? Yeah, that open mic that our used to run. 

 

Oh, I can't remember the

 

 Elwood Elwood Lounge, I think it was, but yeah.

 

Yeah. Um, yeah, I'd say Brooke Taylor. 

 

Oh my goodness. Thank you so much for being so gracious with your time and letting me 

 

No, no. 

 

Pick your brain. Appreciate it. This has been such a joy. Thank you. Thank you.

 

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