3 | You’ve Got To Make Space For Play with James and Bronnie

In this episode, Alexis is joined by James and Bronnie, the talented duo behind the Melbourne-based band Curly and the Fringe. Alongside their music careers, James is an accomplished photographer and videographer, while Bronnie is a freelance writer. They dive into their creative journeys, discussing how they balance their individual artistic passions with their music career, their approach to songwriting, and the challenges of working in multiple creative fields. The conversation also highlights the importance of play in creativity, reminding us that as adults, it’s easy to lose sight of the joy that comes with creating without the pressure of perfection. Whether you’re an artist or someone trying to juggle different creative pursuits, this episode offers valuable insights into finding harmony and success in the creative world.

 

If you’d like to see more, you can follow James & Bronnie on instagram; @curlyandthefringe

 

This episode was recorded on 11 January 2025 on the lands of the Woiworung Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.

Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.

Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor

 

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Creative resources

Scar Tissue by Anthony Kiedis

On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft by Stephen King

Alan Watts

How Proust Can Change Your Life - Alain de Botton

Let’s get social:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast

 

CREDITS

Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor

Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel

Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel

 

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00:09 - Alexis (Host)

Hello, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. Owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. May we pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I'll be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. I'm delighted to welcome you to Through the Creative Door

Hello, James and Bonnie, how are you? 

 

00:52 - James (Guest)

Good. 

 

00:53 - Bronnie (Guest) 

Tremendous Just delicious. 

 

00:56 - Alexis (Host)

I love this. I am so bloody chuffed. I look at you, you bloody power, couple you two. 

 

01:03 - James (Guest)

We do often tally each other. We're like, we're a power couple

 

01:05 - Bronnie (Guest)

But like ironically, because we're not really, I don't think. 

 

01:13 - James (Guest)

We don't really achieve that much. We, you know micro wins every day. 

 

01:17 - Bronnie (Guest)

Again, it depends on your definition of success. 

 

01:22 - Alexis (Host)

That's true. That's true. But for those that are listening, you guys have a cutie patootie, folk slash. What else would you call that? 

 

01:30 - James (Guest)

We're a folk duo on paper, but then we sometimes have a very alternative loud rock band

 

01:44 - Bronnie (Guest)

We're kind of genre sluts. So we like to. We've got one really punk song, one kind of garage stoner rock song. 

 

01:52 - Alexis (Host)

Yep, oh yeah, sorry, I forgot to say Curly in the Fringe. 

 

01:56 - James (Guest)

Curly in the Fringe. 

 

01:57 - Alexis (Host)

That's right, curly in the Fringe Whoop, whoop, whoop In the house. 

 

02:01 - Bronnie (Guest)

All right, let's get into it. I'm excited, let's go, All right. 

 

02:05 - Alexis (Host)

Bron yes, what does a creative space mean to you, and why?

 

02:10 - Bronnie (Guest)

Well, I actually responded more to the second part of this question, which was about how your mindset has changed. Is that right, yeah? okay, if I speak to that. 

 

02:22 - Alexis (Host)

Yeah, 100%. 

 

02:22 - Bronnie (Guest)

I didn't know that I was a creative person for a long time until maybe sort of about five years ago, which is really funny when you look back, because I tried to have the corporate job for about four years at the start of my career and I just did not fit in at all and my one of my first jobs was working in like accounts management for an advertising company and the creatives were on the floor below us and and I just much more kind of you wanted to be there spiritually like gelled with those people because they were because I'm not a normie, right, and I tried, I tried really hard to be a normie for um, up until I was about 29 ish. 

 

03:15

So, yeah, I was trying to fit in all through school. I was trying to fit in with kind of the, the jock group and I played netball and they didn't like me right no, but they didn't. It didn't work at all, it just wasn't. I realize now that I should have been hanging out with, like, the artists and the weirdos and and those are my people, um, because those are the people who are much more kind of authentic, they think about things, they feel, whereas the jock group that I was trying to fit in with. They had a very particular kind of system and way of communicating and set of values that didn't match up with my own, so they didn't like me. They ditched me and bullied me. Fast forward to the career, trying to be a suit and a business person. It's not working out. 

 

04:18

And then I went freelance and I was a writer and I still didn't know that I was a creative person, even though I was a writer. Because still didn't know that I was a creative person even though I was a writer. Because I didn't know that writing was a creative thing really, because it just came so naturally to me I didn't think about it and then sort of yeah, started to realize get to know myself better. When you're 30 plus, it's so good. Oh, how good is being 30 plus I love, yeah, I totally love yeah um, suddenly you accept yourself a whole lot more. 

 

04:51

You're like, hey, it's okay that I don't want to go out and do the stuff that other people are doing. It's okay to like what I like. Um, so all of this is to say that, yeah, I didn't realise I was a creative person and now I'm really trying to learn how to um turn it into a career and be disciplined with it, because I'm really bad with being driven by motivation and inspiration rather than habit and values, which means that I'm not very prolific in terms of creating things. I spend a lot of time sort of on the couch. I call it Bronwy. I suffer from Bronwy constantly and I just like I'm tired all the time. I think I've had a lot of depression and anxiety over the years, probably from trying to force myself to be someone that I wasn't, and that's exhausting. So here we are. 

 

05:55 - Alexis (Host)

How about you, James? 

 

05:59 - James (Guest)

What does a creative space mean to you and why? Well, I've created when I'm anxious and when I'm feeling present and feeling good, and the art that comes out is just different. I think Anxious art's cool. It's like chaotic and just yeah, I don't know, depends on, yeah, I don't know. I always come back to good art and bad art but, like, sometimes I can't express myself. Like I've been writing this song for 10 years 10 years probably and the music is awesome, but the lyrics, like I've written it probably 20 times and I'm like Bronnie, just fucking, can you write it for me? She's like get me a break. Word Smith come on, and at the time that was a song that was, like you know, traumatic event happens and then the music is like based on that, but the words, the words can't. 

 

06:59 - Bronnie (Guest)

But music is also the primary way that you express yourself. 

 

07:03 - James (Guest)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, so that's, yeah, yeah. 

 

07:05 - Bronnie (Guest)

And I like to question whether we always need words. Like why are we trying to force it to be something? 

 

07:14 - James (Guest)

It's funny because I muted the vocal track. 

 

07:16 - Bronnie (Guest)

Yeah, and. 

 

07:17 - James (Guest)

I was like this music's awesome, yeah. But then I'm like attached to that singer-songwriter. I want to be fucking Dylan or whatever and yeah, just like I'm not doing dylan comma bob yeah yeah, um 

 

07:22 - Alexis (Host)

But you think about the times when you hear songs in another language where we don't actually know what they're saying yeah, it hits, it hits yeah, you're right it does. 

 

07:44 - James (Guest)

Yeah, one thing going back to that initial question in a physical creative space, it's pretty awesome to be playing guitar in a room that's clean. 

 

07:55 - Alexis (Host)

As in, no clutter?

 

07:56 - James (Guest)

No clutter, because then you just get distracted by things. I could put that away, or no, you know. 

 

08:09 - Bronnie (Guest)

Interestingly, I totally agree with you. I need a clean, organized space. But, there's some studies that suggest that messy people who have messy spaces tend to be more creative apparently. 

 

08:25 - Alexis (Host)

Yeah, speaking of humans, is there something that you're proud of creating thus far? 

 

08:37 - Bronnie (Guest)

I think all the songs that I've written with James I am actually really proud of because they were challenging. As I said, I didn't see myself as a creative person. I really, when I was younger I wanted to be a singer, but then I had one sister who whenever I would sing there's always one she would say you're out of tune, Bronwyn. Like every single time I'd just be singing quietly in my room and she'd call out you're out of tune, Bronwyn. And now I know that she was just being shitty and sisterly, um, but at the time it was really really shook me because I was like, oh, clearly I can't hear, or whatever, or, and again it stopped me from playing and exploring because I was like it's wrong air quotes, right, um. So then I got really shy and didn't trust myself and everything. 

 

09:37

And James is the one who kept encouraging me and and I got to 29 or whatever, and I was like what am I doing with my life? Like you know, I want to try to maybe do some of these things that I've dreamed of, that I've been too scared of. So I started playing around on the piano and singing a bit and it was rough at the start but, yeah, then we started kind of writing together and James kept me really honest. James has a really good eye for and I hate the language that I'm going to use, but I'm going to say like true art, and by that I mean something that comes from a really natural, genuine, authentic place, and so he'll show me things sometimes that I've put online and and there's a song um cash savage and the last drinks and and there's this music video that goes with it and it's called what's it called? 

um working, keep working on you keep working on your job, working at your job yeah, it's fantastic, it's just, it's so. And he's the first one who kind of showed me the chats and and yeah. And then obviously there's the other side of that where sometimes he shows me some things and we have a little bit of a giggle because the person's trying, but it's clearly they're trying too hard, it's not landing it's not a way that you would expect and people can tell I think people can really tell if it comes from a genuine place or not, or if you're kind of cutting corners and skipping some of the process, you know, just farting out lyrics or whatever, and they don't quite land. 

 

11:27

So yeah, I also started kind of being a bit lazy with my lyrics at the start, as you do when you're first songwriting. You're just kind of filling in lines, I think, think, and James would pull me up and sort of say that's a cliche or that doesn't kind of ring true. And yeah, he kept me really honest and, um, I really genuinely love all the songs, as much as I'm my own biggest critic and and like, find my voice hard to listen to, especially at the start, and I focus on all the flaws and everything. I then hear back the songs a couple of months later or something and I think, oh, actually, yeah, that's nice, those words are nice or funny or you know, and the music is always good because that's you. 

 

12:13 - Alexis (Host)

How about you how about you? How about you, james? Have you got something that sort of resonates with you as like a proud project or creative thing? 

 

12:23 - James (Guest)

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I achieve. I can do things Like. I'm always doing stuff. 

 

12:30 - James (Guest)

Every video that I put out. Sometimes I look back at them on instagram. I'm like fucking deleting that. Yeah, it's oh rough, but at the time I thought it was great. Um, yeah, the songs will be right, like all the songs that we songs that get mastered like. I'm always like, yeah, they're sweet, they can stay up again. I've deleted songs off spotify from my 20s and I'm like, oh yeah, deleting that. Um, you know, art is life too. I used to play sport, so cricket and football, and we won like these premierships, right, but especially this football, like football in Benalla under 18s. It's like three years of training for this moment, basically, and like team building and bonding and like training twice a week and so that was fucking cool, actually playing in a premiership side. I know this is like not music. 

 

13:43 - Bronnie (Guest)

You can totally do sport as a work of art. You absolutely can there are people shane warren, may he rest in peace. Yeah, absolutely, like made bowling into an art form. He did it his own way, so I the art of spin bowling yeah. 

 

13:53 - James (Guest)

So I do really like that as well and I was like a passionate cricketer and stuff. 

 

13:59 - Alexis (Host)

How did you get into cricket, did someone?

 

14:02 - James (Guest)

I had no choice, because my dad and my brother just was there. My older brother and my dad were insane cricketers. Yeah, brother and my dad were insane cricketers, yeah, um, so yeah, there's like accolades and fucking stuff like that. I mean even as simple as like bronnie, and I do cover gigs, like you know two to five at ramblers on a sunday afternoon pretty cool place to play music. 

 

14:33

It's like a brewery and oh, shout out to beautiful ben leslie and like we, just simple stuff like getting dressed, putting your best clothes on. You go do yoga in the morning, go for a run and then we leave at 10 to 1. It's just around the corner and that means I get there 50 minutes before we start so I get to set up slowly. Ben's really cool. We play music for three hours and sometimes the hanging out with ben and just chatting with people there is more fun than playing the music part. 

 

15:13 - Alexis (Host)

But it's just how good is your band family yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah so amazing yeah community community

 

15:29 - James (Guest)

So I really love um team like achieving the team. I can't think of a better word than achieve, but like proud of the collective yeah, collective or um collaboration, yeah, harmonizing even um, anyway, going back to that ramblers cover gig, and then we get home and we've like we fucking did it and we made 450 bucks and we're like we got fed, now we're sitting on the couch watered yeah, good, yeah. Sitting on the couch watching succession and we're like fucking cats are inside. How good's this, you know? This is the life yeah, this is a good life yeah 

 

16:07 - Bronnie (Guest)

what question are you answering? can I just ask? Well, I was answering, basically. 

 

16:14 - James (Guest)

Going back to the initial answer, For those listening, these guys got to read the questions beforehand. 

 

16:17 - Bronnie (Guest)

Guess who did go through and prepare, and guess who, I'm pretty sure did not. 

 

16:26 - James (Guest)

Well, wasn't the question what are you proud of? What are you most proud of?

 

16:29 - Bronnie (Guest)

No, you're doing so well. I'm sorry, don't? I love you. 

 

16:36 - Alexis (Host)

There's no shame, no shame on this podcast. Your answers are super valid. Well, I guess, on the flip side of things that we're most proud of, I'm going to go with you, Bron. First, do you think that there's been something or like a circumstance or experience or a time in your life that has been like had a direct um challenging impact on creating? 

 

17:11 - Bronnie (Guest)

yeah for sure. Um, back in 2021, I had a massive panic attack. I'd actually had a couple. It was in and out of lockdown, stressful socio-political environment. Everything was kind of like going to shit. And um, I was dealing with that by numbing out smoking pot, taking psychedelics, having a wonderful time. But, um, overdoing it definitely. Um self-medicating and cut to massive panic attack. Two hours on the ground, ambulance came fully thought I was having a heart attack and dying. 

 

18:00 - Alexis (Host)

It's all right to laugh now. 

 

18:02 - Bronnie (Guest)

It's funny now Because I was there right. 

 

18:06 - James (Guest)

I called the ambulance. 

 

18:08 - Bronnie (Guest)

But then what happens is I'm actually really interested in psychology, so that was all happening and it was terrifying and terrible, but there was a part of me going. This is interesting. What's going on here, um, and I started learning all about like anxiety and stimulation and panic and and. When you've been through a lot of stress for a long time or one gigantic, very stressful, very traumatic experience, what happens is you're getting all this stress hormone released in your body right and it affects all these different organs, makes it more difficult for your brain to maintain homeostasis and I'm very sketchy on science but I'm pretty good with psychology, so be a bit patient with me here. But anyway, what happens is you end up in a state of hyperstimulation or semi-stress response readiness, and what that basically means is all these organs that are affected by stress and systems in your body are starting to behave erratically because your stimulation levels have risen consistently, that they've reset at a higher spot and, as I said, your brain's having trouble maintaining homeostasis. So you're getting all these like little kind of um tingles in your arm and in your scalp and you're getting like tightness in the chest and you're very jump. You'll find you're very jumpy, um, and because I'd had such an enormous panic attack. 

 

19:46

Um, I went through about three, four, five months of hyperstimulation where I was just like terrified all the time. I constantly thought I was dying, about to have a stroke. Something was off, um, and it made it really hard to create, because when you're anxious, your focus narrows. It's like you're running away from a T-Rex You've become very focused on. You're not like relaxed and thinking about things from a macro sense, you're very much like what's right in front of me. 

 

20:24 - James (Guest)

Yeah, you're on basic mode. 

 

20:26 - Bronnie (Guest)

James calls it basic mode, which I love, survival mode, and it's a beautiful thing. 

 

20:35

It was very, very challenging and and and a tough time and um, one of the things that taught me was, during this time where I was not much fun, probably to be around for James. We were going for one of our nightly walks and it was hard rubbish and there was this tricycle out the front of a kindergarten, like a daycare, that had a squeaky wheel but was otherwise kind of basically functional, and I have no idea why, but I jumped onto it and I was careening around the streets on this tiny little tricycle with this squeaky wheel and it was just fun, right. It was just like silly, spontaneous play Immediately felt so much better and lighter and that was one of the first times where I started to think, hey, play right. Play is so important and as we get older I think a lot of us tend not to do it so much. We get more stuck in our ways and routines and, yeah, how can I maintain sort of a youthful outlook, an open mind, being more present to what's around me rather than just taking everything for granted? 

 

21:52 - Alexis (Host)

Do you need an object. Do you have anything that either of you like a lucky socks or I? 

 

22:02 - Bronnie (Guest)

Ooh superstition. 

 

22:04 - Alexis (Host)

Yeah, like I mean, let's go all out, or is there just? 

 

22:10 - James (Guest)

I don't know. I don't know. 

 

22:12 - Bronnie (Guest)

Not really. I think is the answer Not really yeah, your guitar. 

 

22:15 - James (Guest)

Well, I need a guitar. 

 

22:16 - Bronnie (Guest)

Yeah. 

 

22:19 - James (Guest)

I mean the outcome's better if I prepare Absolutely Headspace I mean meditation, makes the creative session much better. What about you? 

 

22:34 - Bronnie (Guest)

If I'm writing an article or doing yoga or cooking, I need um, I've got to have music. Yeah, that's that's. 

 

22:46 - James (Guest)

I've got to have like a podcast going on whilst I'm walking or something. Yeah, which um which is funny, because you don't need it really. 

 

22:56 - Bronnie (Guest)

You don't need it and maybe it would be beneficial to not have it. 

 

23:02 - James (Guest)

But we do. 

 

23:02 - Alexis (Host)

But maybe you're stimulating multiple senses at once. That help. 

 

23:06 - Bronnie (Guest)

I do it for relaxation, so I put on Calming Classical often when I'm writing just to kind of yeah, you know get you into your body a bit and out of your mind, which is helpful. And when I'm doing yoga, I curate a bunch of yoga playlists. If you're into yoga, my profile is LeBronLA. We'll put it in the show notes. Yeah, and there's a ton of. 

 

23:34 - James (Guest)

There's some banging playlists. 

 

23:35 - Bronnie (Guest)

There's some. And well thought out yeah, very carefully curated, to bring you up into your body and then bring you down again, um, for shavasana at the end, um, but yeah, in terms of if I'm doing, I don't have an object, I don't think, my brain, my heart and senses- Maybe not so much a material object, but yeah. Yeah, I don't think so yeah. 

 

24:03 - Alexis (Host)

All right, if you could give one piece of advice, one nugget of gold to another creative, what would it be? 

 

24:14 - Bronnie (Guest)

Okay, I'm going to speak as if I'm speaking to myself, because I need to hear this as much as anybody. 

 

24:20 - James (Guest)

Yeah good point. I love that.  

 

24:23 - Bronnie (Guest)

I would say trust your own judgment. So explore, play, be open to feedback, but say to yourself like is there anything in this that could help me express this idea better or that could help me make this better? If you like it the way it is, go with it. The way it is because ultimately it's about self-expression. Yeah, it's about self-expression, yeah and um. It doesn't matter if other people like it or respond to it. I think if you're genuinely expressing something, I think chances are people there will be people out there who do see that and recognize that. 

 

25:11

But I think we have this hyper productivity, focused hustle culture where we feel like we need to produce and it's only worth while to do art if other people are hearing it or listening or seeing it or celebrating it. Right, if we're, what's the point? If we're not Beyonce, but no, I think, do more art, it's. It's how you get to know yourself. Um, it's cathartic and it's good therapy it's good therapy. How? 

 

There's no wrong, there's no, it's yeah yeah, there's no, you're not gonna please everyone's a critic. You're not gonna please everybody, so just follow your own 

 

25:56 - Alexis (Host) 

yeah, absolutely how about you, James? 

 

26:00 - James (Guest)

um, I like the idea of talking to myself, as in giving advice to myself, because again I need to hear this. But, um, someone who's had um trouble with self-doubt and confidence in myself, um, try and find the root of why you are doubting yourself all the time, because I find like my own inner narrative is negative. My output isn't as prolific, I guess, or whatever. So we're all riddled with it. But I think try and find a way to believe in yourself and have fun. 

 

26:45 - Bronnie (Guest)

Our inner critic often has the voice of our parents which we don't necessarily recognize. But yeah, try to go back to that childlike mindset of I'm just exploring and playing and and um, following my interests. 

 

27:02 - James (Guest)

You watch all these like child prodigies, like, uh, fucking. I don't know if anyone knows nathan cavalieri or um alex turnerkeys. He's a fucking monster man Like 14, 15, just writing these beasts of songs. 

 

27:22 - Bronnie (Guest)

Yeah. 

 

27:25 - James (Guest)

And he's just playing. You can hear it and there's no wrong.

 

27:29 - Bronnie (Guest)

You can hear it in the Arctic Monkeys' first album, especially how much fun they're having and it's clearly. It just sounds good to them, right, yeah? Yeah, and it's clearly it just sounds good to them right? 

 

27:38 - James (Guest)

Yeah, Absolutely. 

 

27:39 - Bronnie (Guest)

The other thing I would say that I need to hear again is enjoy the process, so try not to force it or be in a hurry to finish it. Let the idea develop. You know, keep coming back to it. That was a piece of advice I got um in in oh yeah, early writing job just keep coming back to it, let it develop, you know, let the seed kind of germinate. 

 

28:16 - James (Guest)

I have one, one piece of advice that um, I guess a mentor, Sean Gardner. He's not with us anymore, but he said to me once kind of in passing but just finish the project and yeah keep going back, to keep coming back to it. Yeah, always try and finish the project. You don't have to release it. You don't know, I do a massive promo and PR campaign. 

 

28:39 - Alexis (Host)

But there's something about, yeah, getting through your process and finishing. Yeah, because then like, then you just, if you don't continue practising, finishing a project, whatever that looks like, then you just have a bunch of stuff that you've just written a verse and a chorus or you know, maybe you've only sketched it, or yeah, there's learnings in the doing right, that's a good one. 

 

29:06 - James (Guest)

Good question. 

 

29:08 - Alexis (Host)

Is there anything? Any books, podcasts, youtube? I don't know any resource that has helped your creative process, Any references? 

 

29:24 - Bronnie (Guest)

Ones that aren't like obvious resources would be like meditating, journaling, the Enneagram Fuck Yes, Rick Rubin does a podcast where he talks with Andrew Huberman, but I'm sure he did a bunch of other podcasts when he was spruiking his book about creativity. 

 

29:45 - James (Guest)

Yeah, that's a good point. Actually, I'm reading a book about the Eagles at the moment and it's just like I guess, no specific podcast, but reading a lot of or listening to audio books about biographies of musicians and stuff like scar tissue by um anthony ketis yeah it's a good 

 

30:11 - Bronnie (Guest)

One on writing by um stephen king. It's really good. Alan watts, I mean, I get super into him and he talks a lot about um Ruay, which is this Taoist principle of not forcing yeah, that actually is something he's informed a lot of my thinking um around. 

 

30:32

You know he talks about, so the healing virtues of a plant, right? So they're not trying to be. We think of virtue as something that you kind of aspire to or like, as opposed to it just being innately in you, totally innately in you, like um. So raspberry leaf tea is meant to be tummy settling or you know whatever, and it's that's just, it's innate property's innate property. So, um, I love that idea. So again, coming back to what I've all been saying about following your interests and what lights you up, and um, yes, there was another one. 

 

31:08

Oh, alan de botton, he's fabulous. He wrote um how proust can change your life, and that's a lot about creativity, the art of travel yeah gosh, there's so many. Love it. 

 

31:23 - Alexis (Host)

All right. One last question. If you could hear another creative come on this podcast and answer these questions, who would it be? 

 

31:32 - James (Guest)

Evan's fun? Evan Jones from Malibu Spacey. Oh, evan Jones is fun. Yeah, he's good chess, he just gets into it. He also loves cooking and songwriting. Yeah. 

 

31:47 - Bronnie (Guest)

I would say we call him Pirate Craig, but his name is Craig Johnson and he performs under the name Del Cinqui. And just because he's a wonderful storyteller, yeah, he's fucking funny. He's really funny and engaging and interesting. So, I think he'd be fabulous. 

 

32:09 - Alexis (Host)

Oh, my goodness, James, Bronnie, this has been so bloody glorious. Thank you so much for coming through the creative door and having a chat with us. It's, yeah, just been glorious Love it, thanks for having us that was fun. 

32:29 - Alexis (Host)

Thanks for tuning in for another episode of Through the Creative Door. If you enjoy our episodes and find value in them, consider supporting us by making a donation. Just visit buymeacoffeecom. Forward slash through the creative door or via the link in our Instagram bio where you can choose an amount and even write us a little message. Every little bit helps and we truly appreciate all of your support. But if you can't donate, no worries, you can still help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends and family and leaving a review on your favourite platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community. We'll catch you on the next episode. Bye.