Through The Creative Door

18 | Music Is My Lifeline with Rae Leigh

Join us in this inspiring episode of Through the Creative Door, where host Alexis Naylor sits down with Rae Leigh—a talented country singer-songwriter, actor, creator, mother and host of the Songwriter Trysts podcast. Rae shares her deeply personal journey, from overcoming the trauma of childhood abuse to finding solace and purpose in music. She opens up about the power of creative spaces, the importance of being prepared, and the courage to step into fear and pursue your dreams. This conversation is a heartfelt reminder that creativity can be a lifeline and a source of healing. 
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Rae Leigh on instagram; @ raeleighaus @ songwritertrysts
 
This episode was recorded on 2 May 2024 on the lands of the Bundjalung Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
 
…
Creative resources from Rae Leigh:
> Podcast: Songwriter Trysts
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
—-----------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hello, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. May we pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. I’m delighted to welcome you to Through the Creative Door. 
Hello, Rayleigh, I am so chuffed to be here. Welcome to Through the Creative Door. 
 
00:55 - Rae Leight (Guest)
Thanks for having me 
 
00:56 - Alexis (Host)
We go way back. We've known each other and we grew up in country Victoria together. We went to the same school. we went to the same church. 
 
01:05 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
You were like confident and creative and I was like shy and very nerdy. 
 
01:11 - Alexis (Host)
I mean, it's the yeah
 
01:13 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
 I was the nerd. That's okay. I own it now I've come to terms with it. I was a nerd. We can't all be pretty and amazing. 
 
01:21 - Alexis (Host)
Oh stop it, right back at you sister. So let's start with a little bit about you. You oh, my goodness, what a rap sheet that you have. You are such a phenomenal country singer-songwriter, very talented, you act which I'm keen to know more about. How that's even come about? But one thing that I'm, just from afar, so proud of you for creating is being the creator and host of the Songwriter Trysts. It's a podcast which you have got on your T-shirt. We've got in the background. 
 
02:04 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
This is for the retreat. This is specifically 2024 retreat, which we're about to experience. 
 
02:09 - Alexis (Host)
I'm curious, especially because you do lots of different creative ventures what does a creative space mean to you and why do you think. 
 
02:21 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
A creative space to me means I have the complete freedom and the space, and that means a little bit of financial security you know, I think you need to have your basic needs as a human kind of met to allow yourself to be creative. 
 
02:37
Financial security, food roof all that stuff helps you to be able to create away from desperation, um, so you need hope. I guess if you don't have hope that you have the ability to overcome, or overcome whatever challenge that you want to create, to solve whatever um, then you won't and you'll feel defeated and you'll feel trapped and then that's a really bad mental health space to be in. So, yeah, that's probably, I don't know, is that what you meant? 
 
03:07 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, well, I mean it's interesting over the course of the interviews that I've done so far. Like some people, a creative space is a physical and in you know,
 
03:18
I was talking about mental space. 
 
03:20
Well, that's what I mean, but everyone's different, and I think you know, for some people if the mental space is not's what I mean, but everyone's different and I think, okay, you know, for some people, if the mental space is not there, then it doesn't matter whether you're in a beautiful fancy studio or you're in a hotel room. If you're not headspace, you're not in the headspace. What is something that you're proud of creating? 
 
03:43 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
I've got a new EP coming out, so I'm really proud of that more proud than. I've ever been of any of my music, which is really cool. I think that's a normal creative thing, though so we're always most proud of the last thing we just did. 
 
00:53 - Alexis (Host)
The thing that’s at the forefront 
 
03:58 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
Most proud of the last thing we just did. I'm proud of the times that I've stepped into my fear and I've not let my fear stop me from doing something, just said yes to so many different things that I previously wouldn't have said yes to because I was scared. I didn't. I mean I wouldn't. I didn't even sing in public until 2019, outside of church and, I think, at school once. I have songs that I like more, so there's a song called All of Me. I have songs that I like more, so there's a song called All of Me, and I find it really hard to even say that I wrote this song, because I didn't technically, I just sang it. 
 
04:32
I was testing out my recording, my new recording equipment. I pressed record and I just played and I went into my flow and I played this song and I finished. I was like, oh, that's kind of cool, I'll just chuck it up on Facebook. I did that exactly as it was, and then someone took that off Facebook, got a backing track created, got me into a closet and recorded the vocals, got it mastered overseas and gave it to me as it was, that is so special. 
 
05:02
Sitting in the car and listening to this fully mastered version of this song, that kind of I didn't write, I sang, like I kind of, you know, I wrote it and I still don't even know what it meant, but it felt so good and I was listening to it in the car and I was like I didn't know that my voice could sound like that. Whatever this person did, I didn't know that I could create something that sounded so professional. 
 
05:28 - Alexis (Host)
I guess that sort of leads me into my next question, which is has there been something in particular that's challenged your personal creativity, and what was the major lesson, do you think? 
 
05:42 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
I mean, I entered into the creative industries in my 30s, which we've talked about ageism and as being a woman. That's like insane, which which is also stupid, like that's. That is not a belief and I'm not going to preach that. Um, I disagree with that. I was being very sarcastic with that but, um, when I was younger, I so I had a an abusive sexual relationship with an uncle who was in my family. He was like my mum's foster brother, and so I was sexually abused from around the age of three or four is when it started and it went right and through until I was about 12 when I started to get very good at avoiding being around when he was in the house and I would go to a friend's house or I could do homework because, you know, I just I learned what was going to be an acceptable excuse to not be around the house and I had more, you know, independence as a 12 year old at high school and um. 
 
06:33
But I was groomed in a way that I thought it was my shame, I thought it was my fault. I didn't feel loved, I didn't believe I was lovable, I didn't think I was as valuable as other people because I'd been abused and I felt like I had been taken advantage of and I thought it was my fault. I thought I was a sinner and I was a bad person and that I'd asked for this attention. And the reality was was like my parents had six kids. They were running the local church. My dad was a Vietnam veteran dealing with PTSD, my mum had a child at 42 and had postnatal depression, so they weren't emotionally available and I was very neglected and I was very by myself as a little kid and all of a sudden I started getting attention from this uncle. And as a child and as adults, we all need attention. There's nothing wrong with attention. It is a human essence that we need, like food and air and sleep. We have to have some form of connection and attention from someone, and as a child, I was starved of attention and I started getting sexual attention from this man, and so it was a very confusing time of growing up, thinking that I liked it, also trying to protect my little sister, making sure that he didn't give her attention. So if I saw that he was going towards her, I would be like no, I want to play with you, you know. So it was a really challenging time. 
 
07:56
And then, once I started to learn to avoid it, I did high school, and it just became this like shameful part of my own story that it was my sin, that I had to hide, I had to shave. I put this big mask on, I became the nerdy kid. I became the worship ministries leader and the school captain, and I tried to be the good person that everyone wanted me to be. I tried not to be shy, because when you're shy, people like are you okay? And I hated that question right. So I got really good at being in big groups. I had one friend who, um, I was able to say I had a best friend, so that no one thought I was weird and had no friends. You know, it's like I created this world of mask around me to make me appear like I was fine, so that no one would see how simple I thought I really was. 
 
08:47
And in that shame, though, I found music. So when I was about six, I saw my dad playing the piano and I just felt it. I just felt that peace that came with it. So I started getting piano lessons, and when other people were away, I would be learning and doing stuff on the piano, and I learnt drums because my piano teacher said I had no rhythm. I think she was just trying to get my parents to pay for more lessons. 
 
09:14
When we were travelling, I would do music theory and I was obsessed, but I never told anyone and I was very shy because the music was attached to my shame and the music was attached to who I really was and my core belief and this is this is where core beliefs is a whole thing. 
 
09:30
You should check it out but my core belief was that I was unlovable, that I was not valued and that if people really knew who I was, that I would be completely cast out. So and that was that was attached to my music, because when I, when I sat at the piano or when I wrote even I had I have so many diaries when I was younger, when I would write and I can't spell either dyslexic and crazy, and I was terrible at English, and now I'm a writer. It's so weird I tell my kids that because my son is like I can't, I'm bad at English and I'm like you can be really good at something. Just because you can't spell doesn't make you bad, because storytelling is a really big part of English. 
 
10:09 - Alexis (Host)
Storytelling is a lot to do with what we do with songwriters
 
10:12 - Rae Leight (Guest)
Exactly, and I'm like I laugh at it sometimes because English teachers that I had as a kid would be like if I had have told them that I was going to do anything to do with writing or spelling they would laugh their ass off. 
 
10:26
So, yeah, it's one of those things that I think I just was attached to me, processing my emotions. 
 
10:32 - Alexis (Host) 
Music was your lifeline, 
 
10:35 - Rae Leigh (Guest) 
It was my lifeline, it was my prayer, like I was calling out to God, and a lot of my songs of just like help me, I'm suffering, like I'm just I can't breathe because I was so stressed, organizing my life so that no one could see what was happening because I was this bad person that that blocker was there because of the shame of what I was, and the music gave my body a manifestation of a way to process the body stuff that my brain could check out of. So there was, like this, what do you call it? Decompartmentalisation? That was happening and this is why, in my podcast, I say music saved my life because, it really did so because music was my lifeline and I could see people being rejected when they showed someone their music and then they got rid of their music, I was like all of a sudden like I'm like this is my music. No one's going to take this me. I'm never showing anyone this because if they take my music from me, I will die I've got nothing, I will have nothing. 
 
11:44
And and I believed that and I say that loud now and I'm like, but like, I honestly believed that if someone took my music from me, I would have nothing. I'd have absolutely nothing. And when I became a mum at the age of 23, I very quickly became aware that I was a victim of child sexual abuse. I didn't have the belief, like the understanding, that I was a child. Do you know what I mean? It was just I brought it on, I was groomed, you know, and so I thought it was my fault. I'd asked for it. Blah, blah, blah, 23, holding a baby in my hands. Oh my gosh, this baby is not going to know the difference between right or wrong, probably for the next 20 years, but let's give them at least 10. You know like they don't know anything and they fully rely on adults around them to tell them what is right or wrong. 
 
12:34
And that was when the penny dropped. I was like, I was taken advantage of, I was sexually abused and I was a victim of sexual abuse. And all of a sudden there was just everything changed. This mother wolf was born. So I reported it to the police with the support of my husband the reluctant support of my parents because they were worried about further traumatisation. I thought, as long as I tell the police, then the blood's off my hands, the authorities know and then they can deal with it. And then it did. 
 
13:02
It turned into like a fast-tracked three-year court case. It went to trial in Victoria, which is where it happened, and I got a guilty verdict. It took three days to share my testimony and I was cross-examined and it was really intense. But we got a guilty verdict of nine different charges of indecent sexual assault towards a minor and along with that whole court case and the closure that I had because of that and the healing that was able to start happening from that and I felt something I had never felt before in my life, I felt happy. I have a song actually called I Need Faith that I released and that was the song that I sang through my entire life. 
 
13:45 - Alexis (Host)
That's very brave to be able to be that transparent. So thank you. Now, when you're creating, do you have an object or thing that you can't live without when you're creating, and why? 
 
13:58 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
Like outside of, like my guitar and my piano and stuff. I still like to write on a notepad and pen. 
 
14:03 - Alexis (Host)
Well, yeah, for some people they've yeah, said that you know it's their instruments, even though they're a tool. And some people it's um. Had one person they still have the printout um ticket from the first concert that they ever went with their dad. 
 
14:23- Rae Leigh (Guest)
Oh, that's so cool 
 
14:26 - Alexis (Host) 
And it just they don't look at it all the time. It's it's, but it sort of sits near their computer and it's just a thing that they know is there. Yeah, it's not's not like they, you know, it's their lucky ticket that they have to touch or something, but it was yeah. So everyone's different. Everyone's got either a thing or a not thing. 
 
14:40 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
I mean, I have journals and like Bibles from when I was a kid, that like were my you know life, that I look at now and can barely comprehend what I'm saying because it's in like dyslexic speech that I've never thrown out. 
 
14:58 - Alexis (Host)
If you could give one piece of advice to another creative person, what what it be? 
 
15:06 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
If you're always in the right place and you're always prepared, eventually it'll be the right time. And I have had people go oh how do you always get all these opportunities? And like, how do you do this stuff? And I'm like, I'm prepared, like I practice my instruments, I'm constantly writing new songs, I've always got more product adding to my catalog. I'm working every day behind the scenes being prepared. You have to be confident enough in your skill of what you do that you can drop everything and do that tomorrow. So, yeah, be prepared, 
 
15:41 - Alexis (Host)
Perfect advice. I love it. What resources would you recommend if someone wanted to do what you do or just as another creative? Yeah, like someone who wants to develop their creative process.
15:52 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
Read books. I mean, I love self-development books so I'm on Audible because I am a taxi mum, I'm driving to schools so I listen to audiobooks all the time and there are so many great audiobooks. I could just show you my library and that's a great way for me to absorb, even like driving to Victoria two Audible books in that 17-hour period. It's great. And then music. 
 
16:15 - Alexis (Host)
That's why I love driving across the Nullarbor or driving around WA, because it's so massive and you just get to immerse. 
 
16:19 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
And when I fly, I'll take a book, so I love reading and getting other people's experiences and I totally think it's absolutely fine if you're only half-read a book. Sometimes you'll be through a book and you'll know whether you want to spend or invest your time in that book or not. Um, I try to finish it, but sometimes you will find books that just aren't page turners. Don’t force it.  
 
16:41 - Alexis (Host)
If you could have any other creative, come on to this podcast and answer these same questions. Who would you want to hear answer these questions and why? 
 
16:56 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
Leonard Cohen. I really like Leonard Cohen and I don't know why. So I would be curious. I'm curious as to how and why his brain ticks, because he has his books of poetry, all his lyrics and songs and just has that power in his creativity to bring people together and feel that way and treat each other in such a way. That's a gift. 
 
17:26 - Alexis (Host)
Rayleigh, thank you so much for coming through the creative door. This has been, I feel, so privileged to have had this chat with you. Thank you for being so gracious with your words and your story and, yeah, thank you for the laughs too. You're such a vibe, so great. Thank you, thanks, very good. Thank you. 
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of Through the Creative Door. If you enjoy our episodes and find value in them, consider supporting us by making a donation. Just visit buymeacoffeecom forward slash through the creative door or via the link in our Instagram bio where you can choose an amount and even write us a little message. Every little bit helps and we truly appreciate all of your support. But if you can't donate, no worries, you can still help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends and family and leaving a review on your favourite platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community. We'll catch you on the next platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community. We'll catch you on the next episode. Bye. 

17 | Vulnerability in Creativity with Blake William

In this episode of Through the Creative Door, host Alexis Naylor dives into the vibrant world of pop punk with singer, producer, and multi-instrumentalist Blake William. Blake shares insights into her creative process, the importance of nurturing a safe space for artistic expression, and her journey as an openly transgender artist. From discussing the challenges of overcoming self-doubt to reflecting on her own projects, Blake offers an honest and inspiring glimpse into her life in music. She also reveals her go-to tools for creating, offers valuable advice for aspiring musicians, and shares the special memento that keeps her motivated. 
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Blake on instagram; @ blakewilliamsau
 
This episode was recorded on 13 April 2024 on the lands of the Eora Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
 
Creative resources from Blake:
> Ultimate Guitar: https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/
> GarageBand
> Logic 
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
 
—-----------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hello, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. May we pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. I’m delighted to welcome you to Through the Creative Door. 
Hello Blake, how are you going? 
 
00:51 - Blake (Guest)
I'm not too bad, thanks. How are you doing? 
 
00:53 - Alexis (Host)
I am amazing, also very chuffed, to be here chatting with you. Thank you so much for coming through the Creative Door. Well, I'm actually coming through your Creative Door because I'm in your amazing space 
 
01:05 - Blake (Guest)
Yeah, thank you for having me. It's awesome. I'm super, super happy to be part of it. 
 
01:11 - Alexis (Host)
So good. Can I just say your music is so goddamn catchy, it's earwormy. So earwormy. 
 
01:19 - Blake (Guest)
Thank you, I'm sorry I do have to say this thing about Breathe, to give the compliment back. I was listening to Breathe this morning and it's been also in my head. 
 
01:27 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, thank you. Yeah, I feel really chuffed. I got to work with a friend with that song and it was just I don't know. It's like what we do is nice to work with community and yeah, it's cool. 
 
01:39 - Blake (Guest)
But the best things always come out of those sort of collabs. 
 
01:42 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, exactly, that's why I love what we do. Yeah, um, but back to you, because we're going to talk about you. Um, you, for those listening, you have this amazing, uh, body of work doing like pop punk, I mean. You were a very multi-talented bear, you, because, of course, I wouldn't be doing my job right if I hadn't stalked you. So I know that you can play lots of instruments Guitar was your first instrument, yes, but you can play drums and you're an amazing producer and you've got a phenomenal tone in your voice. But so I'm just so excited to chat with you. I feel a bit starstruck. So the format of the Through the Creative Door is and I sent you all these questions beforehand but what does a creative space mean to you? 
 
02:42 - Blake (Guest)
I think for me it's a, and I might get a little bit sappy with this, I think it's a place where you can, a place where you can be vulnerable. Um, like this space that we're in today is my little makeshift uh recording studio, which is by all means nothing fancy, but I know that I'm safe in here. Um, I have all my animals around me, my wife around me, and I know that I just feel comfortable in here. And there are things like even just recently, there's some songs I've written where there's a line I'm like I don't think I should do that. 
 
03:19
Maybe that's too far me, that's this, but maybe in another space I would feel less confident with that. But just being here, I'm like, no, you know what, I'm here, that's this, but maybe in another space I would feel less confident with that. But just being here, I'm like, no, you know what, I'm just going to take this chance and I'm very much I'm very much a homebody. So just kind of having a space, whether it be this or even just in my house, having that, to just sort of absorb myself in it, it really is helpful and allows me to sort of block out any extra noise, even if it's like internally there's voices like you shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do this, being in a space that you're so comfortable with and you're so used to it. Just it lets you be more vulnerable and I really, I really appreciate that about the little space I've sort of built for myself. 
 
04:07 - Alexis (Host)
Amazing, amazing. Speaking of bodies of work and, um, yeah, doing that reflection, have you a body of work or a piece of work that you're most proud of creating and do you want to share? Or can you share, like, how that came about?  
 
04:27 - Blake (Guest)
um, I think it's the typical artist thing to say the latest thing I've or the next thing I have coming is my favorite, but I I don't know, I think, like the two that come to mind again, maybe recency bias but the latest single I've put out um, at the time of recording this, was Renegade, which I put out in January, I believe earlier this year, and it was as you mentioned earlier. I've been doing pop punk. That's basically what I was raised on. It's what I've shaped my songwriting around, my production around, and while I am really happy with all the songs I've done in the past and how they've sounded, this one was just like I intentionally wanted it to be basic musically, like melodically, just four chords. Lyrically, like it's still something really important and I mean it really means a lot to me. But I just wanted it to be simple, straightforward and I feel like I nailed it with that that I'm just like like all it's weird, all this extra hard work goes into making something sound like it's less work, if that makes sense, like. There's definitely songs I've done before where I've, like um, overanalyzed too much and I'm still happy with the song but it might be a little bit messy or just bits and pieces here, whereas this one it ended up just being like not perfect, but for what I wanted. It was exactly what I wanted and I was super happy with that. 
 
05:55
And then the other one that comes to mind is um, a song I released a few years ago now I think it was during during the COVID times. Lockdown times called Anymore, and it was the first time I'd ever worked with loops. So like I use Logic Pro for all my production and there's a massive loop library there that just takes up a shit ton of space on my hard drive. But I never touched it and I was just like I wonder what stuff's in here and like I I can't say I'm uh super fluent in EDM or anything, but I I do enjoy some, like if I hear like house music or just some types of EDM, like I quite enjoy that. 
 
06:34
And I was like I wonder if there's a way just to sort of implement that. And I just found this loop that was really catchy, very EDM, very like house music, edm, very like house music. But I just kind of put like big drums to it, big guitars to it and wrote this chorus melody that was fairly simple but it like I went into falsetto, which I'd never done before, and just kind of like all over the place, but I think that's uh. I kind of have, uh, the extreme on both ends. I have Renegade, where I just want to be as simple as possible. I love how that turned out. And then I have Anymore which I wanted to play around with and experiment with and I still like I'll listen to it now sometimes and be like okay, no, I am still, I am so happy with that, almost like reassure myself like was I just kind of caught up in in the moment, but like no, I still enjoy that, I'm still happy with how that went yeah.
 
07:28 - Alexis (Host)
Now getting real personal here. Has there been something personally or like yeah, through your career or like something that has challenged your creativity, and how do you think you were able to overcome that? 
 
07:47 - Blake (Guest)
I think the biggest thing has probably been like, I'm quite openly transgender and I came out 2021 I believe it was and after that I still was doing music, I was recording stuff, I was writing stuff, but it wasn't, it wasn't as frequent, uh, I wasn't doing as much and it was kind of, I guess, a bit of the voice in my head like you have to completely change or you can't do the same thing or or whatever, whatever dumb thought it may be. Again, apologies for my lovely dogs in the background, but, um, yeah, like I have a friend, I have a, I have a friend who's also transgender. She's an artist herself, and both of us met after both coming out and sort of restarting our careers or rejuvenating, whatever it is. And it was funny we both we realized we both had that same mentality of like, damn, am I not gonna be able to do music anymore, I'm not gonna be able to do this. 
 
08:50
And then I think a big influence for me, um, even before coming out, was, um, Laura Jane Grace of Against Me, um, an amazing punk band from Chicago, and seeing that she embraced her true self, like she was able to be who she truly was, but then also she didn't compromise herself as a musician, like she still sang the same way, she still performed the same way. She was just, she was who she wanted to be, and I think that really helped of like, okay, I don't need to, I guess, fabricate someone else or whatnot, like I can still just perform like I always perform I'll. I mean, now I'll dress how I want to dress and obviously identify how I do. But, um, but yeah, I think a mix of a mix of seeing her and how she refused to, I guess, give in to that, um, that pressure any preconceived. 
 
09:51
Yeah, exactly yeah and then, um, even once I'd already started doing things again, um, that good friend of mine her name is Noctica, you should definitely check out her stuff um, but, um, having having that talk and both sort of realizing, like, once you get into it, like yeah, I can still do this, like no one's. It's no one but the, the voice in your head that's saying you need to change this, we need to do this. So I think that was a that was a bit of a thing to overcome, but then it was it's such a little thing that felt like such a big thing. So once you overcome that, it's like oh this, what was I so worried about? But at the time it feels like a monumental thing that you've got to overcome. So, yeah, I think that's probably probably the biggest thin
 
10:37 - Alexis (Host)
Thank you so much for sharing. Okay, so we're going to talk about like this is so random, but I love it. Is there any object or thing that you can't live without when you're creating, like sentimental or like just like a tool that you just like can't creative without? 
 
11:04 - Blake (Guest)
I mean my brain went to the obvious of guitar, laptop, microphone, but, um, I don't know. Like I'm looking around my little space now I just kind of have little trinkets of like collected stuff over the years, like I just have so much stuff everywhere. But I think one thing that's really cool and honestly I haven't even really thought about it until right now. But, um, I have a ticket from the first ever like proper concert I went to, which was ACDC, and I was like 10 years old, so that's awesome and I think like I don't even notice it's there most of the time, it's just there. But I think it's really cool having that to just sort of be like that's the first time being like, oh shit, I want to do this and now I'm definitely not on that scale yet. Hopefully one day. But like yeah, it's. I guess subconsciously it's a little reminder of like keep pushing, you're all well, you're almost there, in a way amazing. 
 
12:07 - Alexis (Host)
I love it. Who bought you that ticket? Who went with you? 
 
12:11 - Blake (Guest)
um, I think that was my dad and my uncle. Um, my uncle passed away a few years ago and he was always a massive ACDC fan. So, especially looking back in hindsight, that was a really special thing to be a part of and, um, yeah, it was just amazing. I still remember having because I think the only concert I'd been to before was maybe the Wiggles growing up which hey don't, I'm not knocking, I'm not knocking. 
 
12:37
I'm not knocking, but I'd say like not that I, not that child me, regretted that, but it wasn't necessarily my choice. Whereas this was, this was your choice. This was my. I'm going to ACDC, but I just remember having earplugs. I think I got given earplugs because like, oh, it's going to be loud, it's going to be loud. And then the second it started I was just like, no, don't need that. Which is, maybe I should have stuck with earplugs for all those years and many, many, many gigs. But here we are. 
 
13:01 - Alexis (Host)
You can still hear, you're fine. 
 
13:06 - Blake (Guest)
I can hear I might need a hearing test, but I can hear I might need a hearing test, but I can hear. 
 
13:11 - Alexis (Host)
Tomato, tomato. Yeah, if you had a chance to give another creative a nugget of advice or a bit of wisdom. 
 
13:22 - Blake (Guest)
what would that be? Oof See, I find that so hard because I feel like I'm the one still wanting and needing advice. 
 
13:31 - Alexis (Host)
Well, you could flip it and be like if someone wanted to do what you do. 
 
13:36 - Blake (Guest)
I think I have just from recent times. I think I have a good one. Like 12 months ago my goal was I want to play shows again. I haven't played since COVID. Even then I wasn't doing too much like some sort of background gigs. But I want to be playing with bands that I love or venues that I love, and I pretty much just for all intents and purposes, just went, fuck it and just emailed every single venue, every single promoter, and majority of them I never heard from. Some of them were just like oh, you know, not really I want to blah, blah, blah. But then there's the ones that did stick gig back, I guess, which was at um Crowbar in Sydney, one of my absolute favourite venues, favorite places to be. So that was insane. And then to this day I'm still, just, still, just emailing people until either they tell me to stop or just, or they'll just be like just give her a gig, just just give her a gig. See what happens.
 
14:37
And I mean for the most part, most part it's worked out and like, from that I have sort of met more people from that community or that I was talking about and have networked more. And I'm the most socially awkward, shy person like. When I'm on stage I feel quite comfortable. It's almost like another character in a way. I can just sort of like turn that up for half an hour 45 minutes, but when I'm off stage I'm super anti-social, like. 
 
15:07 - Alexis (Host)
You mentioned before that you like being at home.
 
15:13 - Blake (Guest)
Yes, very much a homebody. I'd say I've improved over the last year. I think finding this community has really helped that, like having like-minded people that I'm like, oh, I'm actually excited to, you know, go hang out with someone or go to a show with someone or whatnot. But yeah, usually I'm just super anti-social, but I've just sort of it started with forcing myself to like okay, I want to network with people, I want to, I want to find people I can work with and eventually that turns into becoming friends with people and it just has made the whole thing a lot easier. So, long story, short email people until they tell you to shut up.
 
15:52 - Alexis (Host)
 That is the best quote, the best advice yeah
 
15:56 - Blake (Host) 
I'm glad I'll put that on a shirt. 
 
15:58 - Alexis (Host)
 Amazing. Well, you're going to put it on a post-it note later. 
 
16:00 - Blake (Guest)
Yes, I'll remember it. 
 
16:05 - Alexis (Host)
I've got some extra questions. Yes, knowing that you have delved into like production and obviously you, like you were saying before about you know learning different instruments do you have any advice of whether it be software or or like resources for learning instruments? Or, if someone wanted to do what you do, what resources would you suggest? 
 
16:32 - Blake (Guest)
Like I'd have for guitar and vocal. In terms of instruments, I'd say they're my main ones. I did start with tutors and start with lessons, like when I was really young. I think I started guitar when I was like six years old and I just sort of got to a point with that where not that I didn't need lessons like I know there's still a million more things I could do but I was just comfortable at a point where I could help myself progress. And there's some great websites like Ultimate Guitar I've used, which has like chords and tabs and stuff. But even over the last few years I think they've started introducing like videos and tutorials and stuff like that. 
 
17:14
It's really weird. I feel like I'm the last of the generation before like YouTube learning, like I obviously grew up with YouTube but I had in-person physical lessons which like people who completely teach themselves or learn online, like that's amazing. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But I will say there is. There is something still valuable on that, like one-on-one connection. Um, like, I still remember a lot of my early guitar lessons in those formative years but, um, yeah, I'd say I'd say whatever works best honestly, like even now I'll if there's a song I hear that I want to cover or I want to learn that riff or something like I'll just try and teach myself by ear. If I can't do that, I'll look up the tab or look up the chords. So like, obviously you don't need me to say it, but there's a million and one ways that you can learn nowadays. 
 
18:15
But, um, one thing specific to me, I think, when people ask about production, I use a software called Logic Pro. Um, it's kind of Pro Tools has always kind of been considered the industry standard, at least that's what I was always told. But, um, logic Pro, I've always preferred just a bit more, bit more songwriter, creative, friendly, and basically I started by playing around with GarageBand. I was like oh, what do these inputs do? What do these EQs do? What's a compressor? Blah, blah, blah. 
 
18:45
And then, it just happened to be by chance, our school was offering a course. I think it was like a week course we could go to outside of school where you learn about songwriting and production, which was amazing and the instructor there was using Logic. So I was like, what is this? And because it looks just like GarageBand, but like on steroids pretty much and I went home, um, got logic maybe not straight away I had to convince a parent to let me buy it, but, um, but eventually got logic and I sort of took what I'd learned in GarageBand into this but then was like, oh, I can go further with this. 
 
19:26
It purely just became trial and error, like I listened to not all the time, but I have gone back and listened to recordings I've done when I was like 13 or 14. And at the time I was like this is amazing, this is so cool. I listen. Now I'm like, oh, that was terrible, which I'm sure everyone does but objectively this was production, objectively this was terrible. 
 
19:48
And I just kind of like just taught myself more. I um like found like Logic has amazing plugins built in, but I found like external plugins I could buy, that really sort of helps the sound that I want. And then, if it does get there, there have been some things where I'm like, oh, I want to do this one thing, but I can't quite get there myself, so I'll watch a YouTube video on it and then that'll open up another door of like oh, what's this? And yeah, it just kind of goes nuts from there. But from my personal experience and whatever I've said to anyone who's interested in production, if you can start with GarageBand, if you've already played around with it when you were younger or whatnot, give Logic a go, because it's just GarageBand on steroids. And as long as you're, as long as you have the interest and wanting to put the work and time in, like it's so great for just it's just a wealth of knowledge. 
 
20:48 - Alexis (Host)
Amazing. 
 
20:50 - Blake (Guest)
I notice I have very long winded answers. 
 
20:52 - Alexis (Host)
No, I love it. It's so great. That's what I want. Okay, one last question. If  you could have anyone come on this podcast and answer these questions, any kind of creative who would it be and why? 
 
21:09 - Blake (Guest)
I think for me it would have to be someone that I idolize, because I have many like musicians and producers I look up to that, like I could listen to them talk for hours just about their process, about what they do, just the little minutiae of everything. I have two that come to mind and they're sort of linked because they've worked together a long time. 
 
21:30
Um, Luke Hemmings from Five Seconds of Summer so Five SOS has always been, uh, well, pretty much since they've been a thing, I have been my favorite band. They became my biggest influences because they I'm originally from Penrith, they're from like the Richmond Hill sort of area, and I always saw them as like the hometown band, and just seeing them succeed to this day has always pushed me to be like shit, if they did it from friggin Windsor, like I can do it. Maybe I'm still trying, but maybe. And then John Feldman, who produced their first two records. He's done some stuff recently, but he is just, uh, an absolute icon in pop, punk, alternative rock. Um, I'd say, from like 2013 to 2017 or 18, like all of my favourite albums, all my favourite records, came from him. 
 
22:24 - Alexis (Host)
I love it. Oh, Blake Williams, what an absolute pleasure it's been chatting with you. Thank you so much for coming on to Through the Creative Door. 
 
22:32 - Blake (Guest)
That's all right, thank you, it's been such a joy. Thank you so much. This has been amazing. 
 
22:43 - Alexis (Host)
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of Through the Creative Door. If you enjoy our episodes and find value in them, consider supporting us by making a donation. Just visit buymeacoffeecom forward slash through the creative door or via the link in our Instagram bio where you can choose an amount and even write us a little message. Every little bit helps and we truly appreciate all of your support. But if you can't donate, no worries, you can still help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends and family and leaving a review on your favourite platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community. We'll catch you on the next platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community. We'll catch you on the next episode. Bye. 

16 | If You’re Not Making Mistakes, You’re Not Growing with Carl Knox

Join Alexis as she delves into the lush, plant-filled world of Carl Knox, a 3D artist, mural artist, photographer and videographer whose journey spans from anime-inspired artistry to astrophysical content creation. Carl shares his inspiring story of transforming a childhood passion into a diverse career, tackling challenges, and finding joy in his customised creative spaces. From his poignant mural tribute to his dog Zen to designing innovative solutions for his father, Carl's reflections on the value of a supportive environment, balance and the importance of time and space in creativity. Tune in for an honest, heartfelt conversation that celebrates the artistic spirit and the pursuit of one's creative dreams.
 
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Carl on instagram; @knoxcarl
 
This episode was recorded on 8 February 2024 on the lands of the Woiworung Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor. 
If you love what you hear and would like to support us, donate to: https://buymeacoffee.com/throughthecreativedoor 
 
Creative references from Carl:
MasterClass: https://www.masterclass.com
The Creative Act: A Way Of Being - Rick Rubin 
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
 
—---------------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hello, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. May we pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. I’m delighted to welcome you to Through the Creative Door. 
Well, hello, Carl. How are you? Thank you. 
 
00:53 - Carl (Guest)
Thank you
 
00:54 - Alexis (Host)
I am so chuffed. Thank you so much for letting us come through your creative door that's filled with so many plants. I'm so excited about this. 
 
01:02 - Carl (Guest)
Plants make me happy. They make, make, yeah, they clean the air, they look visually beautiful and, uh, yeah, they definitely make my creative space much more pleasant to be in. 
 
01:17 - Alexis (Host)
And it’s such gorgeous light coming in here absolutely stunning. Um, I want to start with a bit about you before I launch into all these questions. I don't even know where to start. You are such a talented bear, oh my goodness. I mean, truth be told, I'd already done a little stalky stalk of you before we had a chat today, but even off mic we just had a bit more of a chat of like sort of current work and things that you're doing. 
 
01:42 - Carl (Guest)
Wonderful. I love tech. I love computers. I used to love Astro Boy watching cartoons. Astro Boy for me is a Japanese cartoon. I used to love drawing and painting in the Japanese style of manga and anime. That's where I started. I had a job in the tax office at tech support doing help desk, helping people install tax software over the phone and while I was taking calls I'd be drawing out of an anime book and learning. You know those? 
 
02:11
How to draw manga books yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, so I loved that sort of stuff, so I started drawing, and then my dad saw that I had an interest in art and he found a 3D animation course in Melbourne and I lived in Canberra at the time. 
 
02:24
So he said do you want to do this? And I said absolutely so. Dad was always very supportive of me studying the arts and becoming some form of artist and then, once I'd got that scholarship to go into computer animation, everything else just fell away for me. I didn't really focus on my school, like my high school grades. I didn't get the greatest grades in high school because I already knew what I wanted to be. Yeah, like I don't need to go to university, I've got my future set ahead of me, like yeah. And so I went down that path hard, all in being an artist amazing. 
 
02:58 - Alexis (Host)
I know that I'm in your lovely home. Thank you for having me in here. We're down one side that's like full of plants and like delicious sunlight, but you've also, down the other room, got your other creative space, which is obviously you sit at a computer quite a lot for a lot of your work. But what does a creative space mean to you and why do you think? 
 
03:25 - Carl (Guest)
This room is incredibly conducive to creativity. I like to have a lot of open space, not too much visual clutter. Everything in this room has to either have a use or be aesthetically pleasing. In this space I don't have a lot of plastic. Plastic tends to have a certain association for me. I much prefer earthy, natural. There's a lot of wood, there's a lot of plants, ceramics, that sort of thing. So this space generally and it's just an aesthetic thing as well I just over time I've I know what I like and I know what gives me inspiration. So if I'm in a room that doesn't have these things, I can definitely still be creative. I know enough about my creative process. I can sit in a cardboard box and be creative if I need to be. 
 
04:11
But it's not. I'm here every day. I work from home, so I want to make this room as conducive to creativity as possible, and that means having everything ready to go. So there's a lot of instruments lying around. I'm not a professional musician, but it does help change my way of thinking. If I'm stuck on a project, I will move to another project temporarily just to loosen me up a little bit. So, yeah, I often have three projects on at any one time at least. 
 
04:38
And I would probably just say like, yeah, if you're starting out new to being creative or anyone that's creative, I would promise you they've got thousands of ideas running around in their heads. It's like oh, I want to start a podcast, I want to do a range of t-shirts, I want to learn how to do this and do that, and it's so important to acknowledge those wants and those dreams. Most people don't acknowledge them at all and therefore they're not passionate about anything. So they don't acknowledge them at all and therefore they're not passionate about anything. So they don't know what they want to do with their spare time, and then they just go on instagram or they go out drinking with their friends. But if you've got a slight creative bone in you when you say I want to start a podcast, write it down, put it on a list, and then, when you're bored, you look at that list and you go, oh that's right, I'm interested in learning how to do that, let's find a course on it, let's buy a microphone, let's meet some interesting people, let's start a podcast, and so validating that desire to be creative is so important and such a valuable thing to do in your creative space. You should have a big list of things that you want to do and have it on the wall, and for me, I choose the top three things on my list. If you look at my list, I've got hundreds of things in that list, but you look at that list and you prioritize, you say which one is the most important to me right now for the next year, and I put I pick my top three and I put them on the top of that list and then I just break them down and then I go down that path. If one year it's going to be murals and I do a deep dive into finding mentors, finding online courses, buying the materials and trying to be a mural artist and just sucking at being a mural artist for a long time and you will suck, and that's part of it as well. 
 
06:16
Um, and so finding, yeah, having your creative space with your to-do list and then also linked to that space, is time. So I work in astronomy. A lot of the work that I do is I work at Swinburne University in the Centre for Astrophysics and Supercomputing. Four days a week I do content for that department with their astronomers, creating content for them, and Einstein's special theory of relativity links space and time together, and so it's the same in the creative world that if you have a creative space but you don't have time, that creative space is null and void, it's wasted. 
 
06:56
So you have to set time aside as well, not just a space, but a day a week. If you, you know, really want to honor you bit yourself being a creative person, set aside time. Set aside time to play, to explore, to make a mess, to watch some tutorials and learning from other people without distraction. Sit down in your beautiful creative space and say I am going to get better at something for a little while. So that's yeah. This room here it's so beautiful to sit and spend time in as well, yeah and that's yeah. 
 
07:32 - Alexis (Host)
I love it. I mean, you've just mentioned, yeah, being able to reflect and be proud on so much that you've done. I guess this next question is probably I'm trying to stitch you up because I'm asking what are you proud of creating and how did it come about? But you probably could say all of the things, but is there one or maybe a handful that you're like, yeah, that's like top notch for me. 
 
07:58 - Carl (Guest)
Absolutely two. Two recent pieces come to mind, and on your way into visiting me today you would have walked past it. There's a beautiful mural on the street downstairs and it's a beautiful mural of my dog, Zen, and Zen passed away two years ago, and it was around the time that we were all going through a lot of change with COVID, and for me, mural painting was one of the things that I picked up as a lockdown skill, and I was terrible at it for a long time, and that's the point of learning a new skill you have to be comfortable sucking at something. 
 
08:37
Sitting in the uncomfortable yeah, absolutely, and that took me a long time to realize that being bad at something is the first step to being good at something. And so it took me a long time, and so that mural is a culmination of a lot of hard work and a lot of dedication, and it's so personal to me as well. 
 
08:58
Zen was obviously a big part of my life, and so the mural if you see it on my Instagram it's of a Japanese dog with a Japanese starburst coming out behind it and there's cherry blossoms on the side and there's a time lapse on there of me painting it on the garage door. But it's designed in 3D like a 3D package software. So Pixar movies are all done in 3D, and that was the first skill that I got as an artist. I learnt to become a 3D animator, and so I designed it and rendered it in a 3D software package called Maya and Keyshot. So Keyshot's a rendering package, and then usually 3D renders just appear on screens. They're just digital and so they never make it into the real world in any way. 
 
09:43
So for me, taking a 3D image and then painting it on my garage door was a wonderful way of combining my 3D skillset with my painting skillset. And it was a huge moment for me because that's my first public piece and it was so personal to me that it was so unique to me as an artist being able to use my 3D skillset, my 2D skill set, and connect really personally in terms of the subject matter and then also how Zen's depicted in the piece, because she's a Japanese breed of dog. A lot of Japanese influence came through in the design. So it's yeah, it's for me, that's one of the proudest pieces I've been able to do in terms of personal connection, as well as so unique to my skill set. Yeah, I absolutely love it. So artistically, that was a really proud moment for me. And then, more recently, there's another proud moment it was a proud son moment. 
 
10:35 - Alexis (Host)
Oh?
 
10:41 - Carl (Guest)
So as, yeah, as a creative, I love the idea of designing and creating things to make the world slightly better, more beautiful. Reduce the amount of work that somebody has to do. Like everything in this house, it's either hung vertically, it's easy access, so I don't have to open doors and, you know, put pans and things away. So I love the idea of minimizing the amount of effort you have to achieve a goal. 
 
11:07
And so my dad had a stroke about a year ago and so he has trouble walking around now. So he needs a walking stick and every morning he does physiotherapy and so he's on like this bicycle machine, this pedaling machine, like you sit on the couch and you pedal and you get blood flow to your feet, and so every morning he needs somebody to help him get into the bicycle, because he his right arm doesn't work as well as it used to, so he needs assistance a lot of the time. So he'd sit in the, he'd sit in his chair and wait for somebody to come and help him every morning, and it's either my mum or it's myself, and I’m in Tasmania, and so I sat on that problem for a long time. I looked, looked at it and went how can I get dad exercising without anybody's assistance? And the bicycle pedals are weighted and so they kind of flip upside down so he can't get his feet in. 
 
11:51
And so I went for a run one day and I came up with a design and it started off. The first iteration was just a pile of books, and the pile of books locked the pedal vertically so he could slide in, and it didn't really work very well until like five iterations later I designed a little foam locking block with a low friction surface on the top so he puts his foot on top of the low surface friction like slidey thing and then slides it in and then just when he starts to pedal the block falls away by itself. So creating that for him made his life so much easier and it's one less thing for me to do and he can start exercising straight away. So designing a small thing like that just for one person I got like, even if it's just for one person, I was so incredibly proud. 
 
12:39 - Alexis (Host)
So well said. On the flip side of things that you're proud of. What do you reckon has challenged your creativity over the years, and is there like a major lesson or lessons that you'd be willing to share? 
 
12:55 - Carl (Guest)
Making a living as an artist was a huge challenge for me. So, yeah, I trained. I went to art school. I trained to be an amazing artist, but in art school, nobody ever teaches you to be a successful business person, and so making money from my art was a massive lesson that I had to learn on my own, and it was incredibly painful and heartbreaking, and I quit art a couple of times because I wasn't being validated financially from it, and so at some point, if you yeah, if you stalk me on in on Google, you'll probably find my website, and there's a lot of commercial work on there there's m&ms, there's pepsi, there's you know, all these illustrations and all these high-end things that you look at that and you go, oh, that's great, this guy's successful. 
 
13:44
But I was doing those things and I wasn't charging properly for them, and so, for me, I was actually running at a loss because I didn't know how to charge properly, and so learning how to run a business was is something that every artist, if they want to be commercial, they need to learn how to do, and nobody yeah, there's, there's no easy way to do it except by sucking and by failing and running at a loss for so long. And then you go oh, wait a minute, I'm charging $90 an hour, but that's not enough, because I'm not like. Yeah, when I realized I went and got a business mentor, I found somebody and I said how do I make this work? And she said, okay, great, let's put all the things that you are good at on the table. Let's have a look at them. And there's wedding photography, there's 3D animations, there's logo design, there's music videos, there's all this stuff. 
 
14:34
And then she goes okay, great, you're a very talented person. That's wonderful. How many of these things do you actually like doing? And you actually like doing and do you want to make money from? And then I said, oh, wonderful, well, let's take half of these things off the list, because I hate logos, I hate doing weddings and I hate all these other things, even though I'm good at them. I'm just like these don't give me joy and this isn't what I want to do professionally. I've got, I can make money from them, but I don't want to choose. 
 
14:59 - Alexis (Host)
Especially when you can choose the ones that, yeah, resonate with you. 
 
15:03 - Carl (Guest)
Yeah, so she only chose the ones that resonated, or I only chose the ones that resonated with me, and I said I only want to do these five things. And she said, great, Now let's just focus on those things. And then she helped me identify what I wanted to be. And then she said now we just need to target clients that need you to solve their problems using these skills, those five things yeah. 
 
15:23
Yeah. And then I said, oh well, that's wonderful, now I don't have to worry about being a wedding photographer anymore. I'm good at it, but I don't want to be that person. She said awesome, let's take it off the list. Let's not make that as one of your offerings. If someone comes to you and says can you shoot my wedding? You say no, whereas previously I'd be a yes man, I'd be like I can do everything. Yes, let's do it. 
 
15:44 - Alexis (Host)
And I don't know if you agree, but do you feel, like when you're a creative, that we're sort of told that narrative that we just have to say yes to everything? I mean, obviously it's different for you because you had lots of different revenue streams, but even as a singer or a musician, I always feel like it's always like you just say yes to every gig. It's like it might not cut the mustard, perhaps in and serving me, but it's just like that. You just want to be seen as the one that always says yes to the opportunities. You don't want to say no to the opportunities. 
 
16:21 - Carl (Guest)
Absolutely. If, especially if you're not having, if you don't have that much money coming in, you kind of go I could do that. And you go, yeah, I could do that. And because you need the money. So back then I was like, can you shoot a wedding? I'm like, yeah, I can do that, I could do that. Yeah, let's do it. And you try it out. And I'm so glad I did try everything because now it allowed me to then, when I had the luxury of choosing which ones I wanted to do, I could say no to some things. But back in the day I had to say yes to everything, and so it's a luxury saying no to some things. And so, yeah, when I went and saw that business coach, I was at the point where I could start choosing my jobs and, yeah, just started saying no to some of them. And then she also taught me how to cost effectively. So I was charging, I don't know, let's say, $90 an hour at the time that I went to see her, but prior to that I was, I don't know, charging $50 an hour or something. She's like okay, well, let's look at that. How much time does it take you to do a project? And I'd tell her maybe eight hours, and she and I'd tell her maybe eight hours, and she's like, okay, that's in an ideal world that you get everything done right the first time. 
 
17:29
Now let's assume that the client wants to make three rounds of changes. That's another two days of work, including meetings that you have to do with them, including emails that you correspond with. Let's assume need to sometimes buy new hardware and your keyboard, a new mouse, a chair, maybe. Let's assume you also need to pay for electricity and all these things. And so I was charging a $50 an hour for eight hours and that was it. And then she say no, you have to add 15% on top of that for Incidentals and to make your business run at a profit, because if you have to hire somebody else at $50 an hour, your business makes no profit. So you are paying a 3D modeller of $50 now. But then there's also the overheads of running a studio, electricity and whatnot. So adding 15% into that will cover it. If, if you need to buy new hardware, those profits cover that. Also, you need to start charging now for meeting times and emails and all those sorts of things. So she taught me how to cost beyond just my hourly rate which is so valuable as a business operator. 
 
18:22
I didn't know how to save for superannuation, I didn't know how to do my taxes, any of that sort of stuff. So I'm an amazing artist, but I was a terrible business operator. So my first business I had to yeah, I had to call it quits, and I had an amazing showreel and an amazing website. And then I went I can't afford to be this person anymore because I need to pay my bills. So I snapped my paintbrushes and I hated being an artist. And then I went and got a nice suit and I got a job as a personal assistant in a corporate world somewhere and I wasn't an artist for a long time because I couldn't financially make it work, and so that was a huge yeah. I was a really good artist. 
 
19:01
And then I had to tuck my tail in between my legs and go look, I can't, I can't make a live, I can't make it as a living, I don't like, I can't make it like this. I don't know what to do. And I just went off and got a normal job and then in my spare time eventually I came back to like I couldn't kill the artist inside me. I'm like it's still there, even if it's hurt, and it it feels like it's a failure because it can't make money. He's still in there. 
 
19:25
And so eventually I came back to painting and drawing, but not because I needed the money, but because the artist inside me still needed to say something and still needed to be an artist. So I started drawing and painting and doing things, and then eventually the corporate job treated me so badly that I'm like no, I think I need to come back as an artist. And then I, by then I knew I'd learned some things about business and I learned how to, yeah, properly charge. And then I came back as an artist and then I got a full-time job at the university. 
 
19:54 - Alexis (Host)
Which is where you are now right?
 
19:56 - Carl (Guest)
Which is where I am now. Yeah, so that took the problem of being an artist for money out. Like it made it easier, because if you're running your own business it's so much extra work, whereas if you just work for somebody else, they handle all the clients, they handle the pay, the tax, the super, the computer, the hardware, the office all that sort of stuff gets handled for you, and then you just show up and be an artist. 
 
20:18
And so being a designer for another studio, or you know somewhere else that they've got a problem that they need solving with your skillset. Then you just show up every day nine to five, be a designer for the man man being management. It's like you just, yeah, just show up and do it and then you come home and you can do whatever you want to do in that spare time. And in my spare time I would always be leveling up, always learning new things. I'm addicted to learning. I can't stop. I love it so much now yeah. 
 
20:45 - Alexis (Host)
Now, yeah, this is probably going to be a hard question to ask again, because you have so many realms. But is there an object, and maybe it's like a sentimental thing that you can't live without while you're creating? 
 
21:01 - Carl (Guests)
Yeah, absolutely, that's um, that's multiple computer screens.
 
21:07 - Alexis (Host) 
I thought it might be something like really like obvious, like that.
 
21:13 - Carl (Guest)
Yeah, I can work on one screen, but if you have a look at my desk, I have four screens on there. I've got two in front of me, I've got one under my desk. 
 
21:19 - Alexis (Host)
You have this really cool like glass desk and like a screen underneath, which is such a vibe. I've never seen that before. I want one.
 
21:28 - Carl (Guest)
I had all these old screens lying around, so I just decided to plug them all in, and I love having I just have loving having access to things. So if it's emails and I'm someone's written in me an email, say, for instance, it's a logo design or something, they'll have eight different points in there that I need to make reference to. So when I'm designing the logo, I make sure to have the email open. I make sure to have all my reference images open, and so that's why I needed another screen, like either down beneath me or to the side, and then I also have a projector plugged in which covers that big wall on the right-hand side there which is currently turned off. But that means I have as much real estate as I can. 
 
22:07
And you'll notice, actually now in the Apple Vision Pros, everyone's wearing these new VR headsets over in America, and that's a sense. It's essentially a VR headset that you can walk around. It's a mobile headset, but what that allows you to do is to pin videos in virtual space around the place, so you can have as many screens as you want around the place, which is wildly productive I think. You'll be able to have recipes open in the kitchen, and then Gordon Ramsay teaching you how to cook dinner versus. And then you walk over the piano and then you'll have all the notes coming towards you, overlaid over over the videos of yeah, of you seeing the piano in real time.
 
22:35 - Alexis (Host)
It’s like the reality version of, like guitar hero.
 
22:50 - Carl (Guest)
That's exactly right, yeah yeah. So the next couple of years, you'll be seeing these virtual screens becoming more and more accessible, and I think that's going to be wildly useful, because I love having as many screens as possible, um, open to me just for reference, making, yeah, making, inspiring me, as many things I can have. When I'm in that zone of creativity, I want to see as many shapes that I'm trying to reference, as many fonts as possible, as many colors, yeah. So multiple screens for me is lovely, and if I can't, if I only have one little laptop, I'll try to have a notebook beside me. 
 
23:13 - Alexis (Host)
If you could give one piece of advice, one nugget of advice to I don't know someone who wants to do what you do, or just another creative, what would it be? 
 
23:34 - Carl (Guest)
It's going to come back to something I said before that you have to being bad is the first step to being good at something. So before you can be good at something, you have to be willing to be bad for a long time. And I love being bad at something now because it means I'm on the journey to growing and it means that it's worth. 
 
23:58
It's worth chasing after something that you're not good at, because if you were good at something, if everybody was good at the skill that you're trying to achieve, it wouldn't be special, it wouldn't be worth being, it wouldn't be worth achieving, because something that's easy is accessible to everybody, whereas something that's hard to do means a limited amount of people can do it, and it makes you more who you are, makes you more unique. You've so many people give up when they suck, and it's such a shame, because that's half the fun. The half the fun is making a mess and trying something new and pushing through that frustration, and it teaches you so many things in life that are worth learning. Learning how to deal with hardship, learning how to deal with struggling at something that you're not good at, getting out of a situation that's uncomfortable through hard work and dedication, because if you're not making mistakes, you're not growing, and so sucking and making mistakes means you're growing, which means you're becoming a more talented person. 
 
24:56 - Alexis (Host)
So true, so true. Got an extra question, what resource would you recommend or resources would you recommend if someone wanted to develop their creative process? 
 
25:12 - Carl (Guest)
I would say put aside a small budget every month to buying things like subscription services or new artistic tools that if you might buy, like look at a paint. If you're a painter, it's like oh, there's a course online for you to. I'm always curious about doing photorealistic portraits, but you know it's a $50 course and it's $50. You know I'm not going to spend that money, but that budget is an investment in yourself. And so, putting money aside every month to pay for something like ChatGPT or any subscription service, even if it's something. I love, there's a series online called Masterclass. 
 
25:55 - Alexis (Host)
I've seen the ads for those. They sound fascinating. 
 
25:58 - Carl (Guest)
It's wonderful it's like Netflix you, most people pay for Netflix and they're happy to pay for Netflix and Masterclass is like a streaming service for creatives, for entrepreneurs, for sports people, any. If you want to learn a new skill and if you want to have a mentor or access to videos of successful people. That's what Masterclass is. 
 
26:19 - Alexis (Host)
One last extra question. If you could hear anyone come on the podcast and answer these questions, who would you want to hear? 
 
26:29 - Carl (Guest)
There's a gentleman named Woody Sampson and he's a local musician in Melbourne, so you might be able to track him down. He's a wonderfully talented musician. He plays almost everything and he used to have a corporate job. He used to work for I won't say who, just in case it comes back, I'll let Woody tell his story. But he used to work corporate and it just didn't resonate with him and so he quit, quit, and now he's a full-time musician and he's such a wonderful person, so much energy. He plays, like I said, he plays trumpet like a weapon. He's a plays piano, he plays guitar, he sings, he DJs. He's just wonderfully creative and he's, yeah, just one of the the happiest people you'll ever meet. 
 
27:07
People like that just light me up. So, regardless of people, if they don't like their art or their music, they're just wonderful people that just have followed their dreams and not listened to what anybody else has ever said and they're happy just being themselves, and so those are the types of people that, yeah, I want to hear more of their stories and more of who they are. 
 
27:26 - Alexis (Host)
Oh my goodness, Carl, thank you so much for this chat. This has just been such a so filled my cup. I love it. 
 
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of Through the Creative Door. If you enjoy our episodes and find value in them, consider supporting us by making a donation. Just visit buymeacoffee.com/throughthecreativedoor or via the link in our Instagram bio, where you can choose an amount and even write us a little message. Every little bit helps and we truly appreciate all of your support. But if you can't donate, no worries, you can still help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends and family and leaving a review on your favorite platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community. We'll catch you on the next episode. Bye. 

15 | Be Kind To Your Artist with Uma Dobia

Join Alexis as she sits down with the incredibly talented singer and creative Uma in this inspiring episode of Through the Creative Door. Uma shares her journey as a musician and performer, from her opera training to her cabaret performances. She opens up about the challenges she's faced, including navigating lifelong food allergies and a recent Crohn's disease diagnosis, and how these experiences have influenced her creative process. Uma also talks about her proudest projects, including her cabaret show “Intolerant” and her powerful songs “Houses On Fire” and “I Will Stand.” Tune in for an honest and heartfelt conversation about creativity, resilience, and the importance of self-compassion in the artistic journey
 
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Uma on instagram; @umamusicoffical
 
This episode was recorded on 24 January 2024 on the lands of the Woiworung Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
 
Creative references from Uma:
House On Fire - Uma Dobia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_KqCHMnqwk 
Haus Of Shmizzay - https://www.instagram.com/hausofshmizzay/?hl=en 
Soula Parassidis - https://www.instagram.com/soula_parassidis/?hl=en 
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
 
—---------------------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door. 
Hello Uma, how are you? 
00:48 - Uma (Guest) 
I'm good. How are you? 
 
00:52 - Alexis (Host) 
Good. I am so chuffed to be chatting with you. You are such a talented bear and I met you through, actually, my manager at the time and her brother, who's a wonderful audio engineer and musician himself. But yes, I think you're just a vibe. You're such a vibe and it's so exciting to see on the outside, looking in, your journey's been changing quite a lot as a creative. You're doing so many amazing things. You are doing lots of opera stuff, which is amazing, and I might have done a little stalky stalk on um YouTube. Oh, so stunning. Oh, my goodness, so jealous. I did do a stint of opera, learning opera when I was in high school, just as a like a dipping your toe in and I'll tell you, there's so much respect there that is hard yakka, hard yakka. 
 
01:43 - Uma (Guest)
It's not easy it's true, it's true, it's never too late. 
 
01:47 - Alexis (Host)
I'm not sure that's my calling I think it's yours and I'm happy for you to talk about that. But um, I'm also super chuffed for you that you have written this phenomenal show Intolerant? Which I'll let you talk to everyone about it. But, um, yeah, just what's a bit about you, and I'm just, yeah, just even chuffed that you're here. Oh, I'm through the creative door, with you. 
 
02:16 - Uma (Guest)
I'm really excited to to be sharing this space with you too. I adore you and I admire you so much as an artist. You've done such gorgeous things
 
02:20 - Alexis (Host)
Aw thanks my love. 
 
02:22 - Uma (Guest)
Very excited to be here, yay. 
 
02:27 - Alexis (Host)
Well, I feel very chuffed that we are outside, very surprising that Melbourne's actually got sorry, that's really mean of me to say, but for those who know, Melbourne is usually four seasons in one day. That's right, it very much is. And we are sitting outside on your beautiful deck, your beautiful back garden, with the sun shining down on us, the birds chirping. It's just delightful, it's pretty nice. 
 
02:53 - Uma (Guest)
This is summer. This is our one day of summer that we get. 
 
02:56 - Alexis (Host)
Just one. That's one. I timed it very well, you did. I'm curious. You have been on this journey as a creative, as a musician, a singer, for a long time, but I wonder what for you, is a creative space. Like, what does it mean to you and why do you think that is? 
 
03:16 - Uma (Guest)
I think for me, the creative space has been in my head and at the piano a lot of the time. Not all the time. Sometimes it's at a cafe, 
 
03:25 - Alexis (Host) 
Oh I love this yeah, do you have a particular cafe? 
 
03:30 - Uma (Guest)
Well, because I've just moved up here to the beautiful Dandenongs and there is one not far down the road that I like to go and set myself up at. But I used to have, you know, my different places that I will go, depending on where I was living you know I lived in closer to the city of Melbourne for six years or so and I had a couple that I would frequent often to do some writing. 
 
03:50 - Alexis (Host)
Love this, first name basis. What’s your coffee order?=
 
03:57 - Uma (Guest)
It's a bit wanky. It's a large, weak soy latte, because I discovered that I liked the less strong flavour but I didn't want a small one, yeah okay, you know so, and that way if I'm really desperate I can have two, but if I've had a double shot, kind of two, I'll be up all night, yeah, anyway, anyway, that's too much information for anyone, but I think, like for me, I remember when I first started writing, writing my own music, which I had done, you know, bits and pieces of as a kid I dipped in and out of all sorts of different creative things, because that's what I love to do but, when I I had one song in particular come to me in a flash of inspiration literally after being on the train, and it came through my head on the train on the way to uni and I was like what am I gonna do? How do I get this out? So I was singing to myself as I was walking from the train to uni and trying to get it in a voice message to myself. 
 
04:50 - Alexis (Host)
How good are voice messages!
 
04:55 - Uma (Guest) 
So good, so good. But I suppose that's the thing is that usually, you know, my creative space is in my head. It's from a flash of inspiration, from a flash of a moment, and usually, very inconveniently, it's when I'm doing something else, when I'm at work, when I'm supposed to be doing other things, and I have to like quickly write something down. 
 
05:09 - Alexis (Host)
I can empathize with that. Mine seem to always come when I'm driving, when I do long stint drives, which is why everyone wonders why I like driving so much. I think they think I'm a bit nuts, but it's because it's like the time
 
05:21 - Uma (Guest)
Yeah, that's right.  Yeah that's right. It's when your mind is focused on something. Yeah, yeah, exactly and you just allow the inspiration to come instead of trying to make it happen, although everything sounds like that too. 
 
05:29
Yeah, you're like I have to finish this, yeah, but, um, but I guess it's so, I mean, ultimately the creative space becomes then taking the idea away and sitting down, you know, maybe sitting down at the piano, um, you know, spending some time working through different ideas. I'm trying more and more these days because I found it really works for me to just move with an idea, like it's the actual act of if I'm feeling inspired to dance or just to walk, you know, really helps me not get stuck in panic of, oh, this idea is crap or you know all that kind of stuff that comes up a lot yeah, so yes, cafes, my own head when you're doing something else and then at the piano when I get like I don't play. 
 
06:15
You know, you have such gorgeous you know gorgeous tradition of being able to play for yourself and do all that kind of amazing stuff. I never cultivated that. That was the one thing I was like. I don't want to practice, I just want to be good, so of course that's right and that never happened, but I play enough to write chords. 
 
06:37
You know around my songs and stuff like that. So when I get in that zone I can be there for hours because I love it. Um, and then that builds upon the other ideas that have already formed. But there isn't one set way I've found for me. There was one song, one of my favourite songs that I wrote way back in the day, came to me. I like woke up with it in my head, and that was another one where I was like where is the voice message? But yeah, it's a little bit random, 
 
07:09 - Alexis (Host)
Or what do they say? You should always put like a pad and paper next to your bed. 
 
07:11 - Uma (Guest)
Oh yeah, I've done that too. Yeah, yeah, I did that with my show. I did it before then, but I did it with my show. In the middle of the night I would wake up and like where's the script? Yes. Then in the morning you're like what the what does that say? 
 
07:21 - Alexis (Host)
Wait. I really need some time to decipher what it was I was thinking at 2am. 
 
07:24 - Uma (Guest)
That's right, and why is it on an angle and why is this letter really big and this letter really? Anyway, very funny, because I don't turn the light on, I just do it in the dark. I don't want to wake myself up. Yeah, true, I want to be able to go back to sleep. 
 
07:46 - Alexis (Host)
True, true. You have done so many things, so I think this is going to be maybe a hard thing to ask, but then maybe it won't be. What are you the most proud of creating, whether it be on your own or collaborating with others? Um, and if so, if there is one or a few things how did it come about? 
 
08:00 - Uma (Guest)
Yeah, I thought about this one a little bit. I there are. There are three things I'm most proud of, and the first is my show which is Intolerant, which I debuted at Melbourne Fringe Festival last year in October and it's coming very excited, taking it to Adelaide Fringe Festival from the 2nd to the 10th of March and then Melbourne Comedy Festival from the 27th of March to the 2nd of April. I've got to get that right. 
 
08:27 - Uma (Guest)
And then really excited to start taking it overseas this year as well. We're planning San Diego, maybe San Francisco trying to work that out and hopefully London as well later in the year which is really exciting, but this is the piece that I'm most proud of, for a few reasons. 
 
08:45
First of all, it allows me to do all the things that I've done, so like the writing and um, which is songwriting, but also some theatre writing. I have done some of that stuff before and I really enjoy it. It allows me to do the kind of performing that I like, which is I've discovered, you know, really being able to have moments with the audience where it's not just you're the audience and I'm the performer, and that's what you know. My journey has been a little bit all over the place, but that's what I came to discover I didn't like about a lot of the very traditional ways of performing, particularly in the opera world, which is kind of where my career has kind of gone more. 
 
09:19 - Alexis (Host)
Was that the thing that you liked about sitting more in the pop? 
 
09:26 - Uma (Guest)
Yeah, I liked the connection with the audience, for sure. And that informal kind of space where you can have connection, and that banter. But what I like about Cabaret, which feels to me like it brings all those worlds together, is that you're also able to create more play and more story and more comedy that adds to a greater story. You know, if you're doing a gig, that's great I love doing a gig but it is not. It doesn't have a shape in a story and a narrative. You can create it through the songs. Yeah, but that's not why people go and see a gig. 
 
10:01
You go and see a gig because you want to lose yourself in the music and enjoy what the artist is putting up there. You know, um, and I like that. Yeah, cabaret allows me to kind of straddle both of those two worlds, but with that informality that pop gives you where you're having a conversation with the audience. So um Intolerant really explores my experiences with lifelong food allergies and Crohn's disease, which I was only diagnosed with not even two years ago. It was in May of 2022. 
 
10:34
So that was a very difficult time, very physically difficult time. But I remember thinking partway through navigating that year because it became a horrific year when, yes, I got diagnosed, finally, after being, you know, sick for two and a half years um, with Crohn's, but without knowing it was Crohn's. Then, after I got diagnosed and we started looking at ways to treat it, I got COVID and then it became long COVID and it was a whole like that year was awful and I remember really feeling like, okay, when I'm well enough, I have to create something from this, like I can't just this is not just time that I'm laying in bed. This has got to come out of me 
It's got to be something and I, um, I think that that drive I don't know exactly what that drive is in me when I've I've had that very strong drive, you know, like I've got to do something about this, or I've got to like I can't let this pain go unacknowledged, like kind of thing. All the three things that I am most proud of. So I'll talk about the other two very briefly you know all. 
 
11:47
All of the projects that I'm really proud of have come from that place. So it feels very connected to who I am and very part of my values and how I've always kind of gone through the world. 
 
11:57 - Alexis (Host)
I can resonate with this so much. 
 
11:58 - Uma (Guest)
Yeah, right, yeah. That's why I like this so much. But it's just, it's so. Yeah, it's connected to my core and, you know, sometimes we forget about that and we go away from it. We have to live in this world. That, you know, pulls us in so many different directions. You lose sight of that, but when you are able to tap into that, it sounds really wanky but you know that essence of who you are you know? 
 
12:19
At your core and you can create something from that. That's so powerful. And I think for me this show, as I said, you know it allowed me to do all the things I love. It's original music, but it's also opera, it's comedy, it's play, but it's also got real moments of intensity and and um pathos. You know, it showed me that I can do that on my own. You know, would I recommend self-producing, not having a director, not having a marketing team?
No, I wouldn't. Uh, am I doing it again for the next rounds? Yes, I am. Would I recommend that? No, but that's how we are when we start, you know, when we're at the beginnings of these things. And it is very different these days in the industry. 
 
13:02
You don't just approach an agent and they appear you know, it doesn't work like that, no, so, uh, or a manager, you know. So, until it happens, you end up doing a lot of this stuff on your own, and it showed me how capable I am to do all of that stuff and to do all this other crap that I have no experience in, and it felt really, as I said, you know, aligned to who I am as a show and powerful, like the audience response was. I was really touched by the people, enjoyed it and felt connected to it, but also that I could do it like that was great. But then, in that same vein, you know, the other two pieces that I did under my stage name. 
 
13:37
The two songs that I'm most proud of are definitely Houses On Fire, which I released in 2020, which is a climate action song. Oh my god, it's amazing. Still adore that song and where it came from, you know. But then the other song that was on, like my very first kind of release, um which was called Girl On Caffeine funny, we talked about coffee um, um, that song is called I will stand, which again is about it's more from a social justice perspective and about, you know, standing up against hate, which feels very applicable now, uh, more than ever more than when I wrote it even. 
 
14:11
But those pieces that they just they hit something really deep in me. So it's not just creating the art, even though that's really fun and I love doing that and art for art's sake and fun for fun's sake and all of that. But when you, yeah, connect in, it's something else. 
 
14:29 - Alexis (Host)
But we're also multi-faceted we're allowed to just do those fun loving songs that are a bit more carefree and then for us to really tap into, like that's right, there's no rules, we're allowed to whatever, yeah, I'm so chuffed that you mentioned um those three projects because they're yeah, they're pretty special, so special. But then on, let's flip it. Yep, what do you think has challenged um your creativity and do you think there was like a major lesson out of that? 
 
15:02 - Uma (Guest)
I think the biggest one for me is um coming up against internal shame like coming up against internal shame like very often. That's really really powerful for me and and bites me in the bum all the time, you know, even when I need to go and practice something and go into the practice room to get started. You know that's my biggest challenge to getting into any creative space and I think that was really difficult in writing Intolerant. 
 
15:30
It made it so hard because so many of the experiences, the stuff that I experienced as a kid with my allergies and not being taken seriously, and then not being taken seriously, you know, with doctors for two and a half years before I was diagnosed with Crohn's, all this kind of stuff and the little things that happen along the way, you know, with things that people don't even think of. You know, like dating when you've got food allergies, is interesting. You know it's intense and you've got to find ways to navigate those things. And because so many of those experiences were wrapped up in so much pain and shame and yucky you know stuff, um, it was really hard to write the show, like I was getting blocked, I couldn't. I kept being like I have to finish this, I have to do it now because I've got to do this, xyz, and it just kept like. 
 
16:24
I just kept feeling blocked and it took a long time to work through that and I, you know, ended up having to talk a lot of it out, you know, with with my mum, with other people that I, you know, knew would be able to listen to it, rather than trying to sit and write it, because normally that's how I would do it and then come back and listen to what I'd said to be able to write it out. So it's those those old, very, very old emotions that really bite me, the bum, the most
 
17:00 - Alexis (Host)
Was there some tools that were you able to sort of? I mean, you just mentioned obviously leaning on your community to help you through that. Were there some other tools that were helpful during that time to try and regulate? 
 
17:12 - Uma (Guest)
I think that is a little bit more when I started leaning into okay, I'm experiencing this really strong thing. I need to move my body somehow. I need to get it out. Okay, I dip in and out of that. Some days I'm able to do that and some days I just kind of go and go much more internal but when I do it it's really really powerful and useful. 
 
17:35
Um, but also I think it was just kind of going learning to let go of that uh sensation like, okay, you're so wound up now, just take a step back, go do something else. Yeah, you're on a deadline, but forget about the deadline. You can forget about it for another half an hour. 
 
17:54 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah an hour is not in the big scheme of things the deadline's there, but an hour, yeah, it's not gonna break the bank. 
 
18:03 - Uma ( Guest) 
Right and I've learned over and over, and, over and over again over my years of everything, not just creating but doing it of life, of adulting, that's right like if you give yourself that time to recover is not exactly the right word, but if you give yourself that time to process stuff, you end up actually being more productive. 
 
18:23 
And not that productivity should be the measure of who, we are. But when you are trying to create something on a deadline, yeah you know saying actually I'm going to give myself the afternoon off, or actually I'm going to give myself the morning off or I'm going to do, rather than being really hard on yourself saying it's not done, just go and finish it right so much more helpful. 
 
18:45 - Alexis (Host)
I don't. I don't know about you, but I always think I, whenever I'm in those spaces, I feel like I need to take a step back and be like, okay if I wasn't talking to myself and I was talking to a fellow human being, would I be saying those things? Probably not. I'd probably be like you need to have balance, you need to eat, sleep, move, see your friends, whatever. You can't work all the time, you can't, yeah and yet I don't know about you, but that, on reflection, it's like oh no, I expect, yeah, the utmost output
 
19:12 - Uma (Guest)
Well, and I think, like well I know, for opera singers and classical musicians in general, but particularly opera singers we're told you have to practice every day, you cannot miss it. You know like, and there's so much, as an opera singer, that you have to build in your toolkit you know, you have to be across the languages, as well as across the technique, which takes a lot of dedication. You have to be across the breathing. You have to be across the style. 
 
19:40 - Alexis (Host)
It’s so hard. 
 
19:42 - Uma (Guest)
It's really hard, right and, and it's impossible to well, unless you, unless that is all you want to devote your time to, it's impossible to have a life and and and maintain that. You know you have to live your life around your art, which some people want to do, and I suppose that's why part of the other reason why I've leaned more on cabaret is that my body is not made for that life. 
 
20:09
You know, cabaret allows me to be able to do that kind of stuff, that really precise work in the context of doing other fun stuff as well, and I think in terms of, you know, pop stuff we also get it from. You must hustle. You want people to listen to your music. You've got to be on top of this. You've got to be on top of that, you've got to be like all this kind of stuff, and I mean okay it's, it's, it's. 
 
20:36 - Alexis (Host)
Look, I mean, nothing we do comes without hard work. No, but I think that notion that you need to be hustling every minute of every day you're almost doing people a disservice because, like, everyone's going to burn out and people are the amount of I'm sure there's people in your community to make you. Yeah, we hear quite often, or not, that people burn out and if not, they have a hiatus, they totally leave the industry. That's right. 
 
21:04 - Uma (Guest)
Yeah, that's right. And also, I mean, I suppose it depends on what angle you're coming from, but the more you hassle people, the less they're going to actually want to engage with you too. So you've got to choose. You've got a big project that you're doing. Yeah, you're hustling around that, but you know, you've got to give yourself the grace too, I think. 
 
21:24 - Alexis (Host)
We need to love ourselves and be kind to ourselves. 
 
21:27 - Uma (Guest)
Yes, we've got to work on those things.
 
21:37 - Alexis (Host)
When you're creating, do you have an object or a thing and it could be something really like practical or it could be like sentimental but do you have a thing, an object that you can't live without when you're creating? And if so, what is it and why? 
 
21:54 - Uma (Guest)
I think for me it's. It's not a specific notebook. I mean, it would be a specific notebook that I've got those notes in, but it's like it's not that there has to be has to be this special one. I just have to have a notebook and usually I've got like the pen of the day, you know, the pen that has been my, my best friend for the last you know few weeks or whatever yeah until it's the next pen. Yeah, you know that kind of thing. 
So I want my favorite pen of the moment and I want my notebook. They're my two like things. 
 
22:25 - Alexis (Host)
I love this, yeah if you had one piece of advice, like a nugget of goodness to give another creative, what advice would that be? What would that little nugget be? 
 
22:38 - Uma (Guest)
I think, taking the pressure off yourself that you have to create in this particular way and you have to do it exactly like this and it has to be done like giving yourself that space to live there wasn't, and knowing and trusting that you're going to come back to your creativity because you are, like it's an innate part of who you are. Just because you put it down for a day or a week, you know, or you're on holiday for a month, it it's still part of who you are, it's still going to be there and that space might actually help you create something even more special, even more connected. I think that was something that was really. 
 
23:18
I listened to an interview with Trevor Noah and, okay, you know, stand-up is not my mode of creativity, although you never know, but never say never, never say never. But, um, he said something about that, how he was like pushing really hard, doing gigs and all this kind of stuff, and a mentor said to him how are you going to get new material? Like, if all you're doing is gigging and writing stuff and preparing for the gig and doing the gig, you're not creating any new material for yourself because you're not living, and I think that doesn't just apply to stand up, it applies to music and it even applies to operate. Yes, we have a lot of practice that has to be done, but if you're not also then gaining, you know, experience in other parts of life or giving yourself the space to develop more, you're not actually going to achieve like that. 
 
24:08
Every one of my biggest achievements or biggest steps forward in my development as an artist have been when I have had a little break that might only be three days, you know, or a day or whatever, but giving myself that space to then come back and it's like, oh, oh, oh, it's all happening. You know, you're just giving yourself, yeah, you're taking, taking a bit of the pressure off. 
 
24:30 - Alexis (Host)
If someone's curious to sort of do what you do, or just even not to even do what you do, but just curious how you got to what you're doing. Would you have any references or resources that you'd recommend, like are there courses or books or I don't know, influences? 
 
25:01 - Uma (Guest)
From an operatic perspective. There's some great like masterclasses on YouTube with, like really famous opera singers, so that will kind of give you a flavour of that world if you want to go looking in that direction. But there are also some really funny influencers on Instagram that do really silly content around opera singers. It's niche. It's niche because it's for opera singers, by opera singers. But there's some great stuff out there, like Haus is in H-A-U-S of Schmizzay is very good. And then Sula Parasitas she's an amazing Greek. I'm pretty sure she's Greek. 
 
25:35
I think she's Greek, she's a very good opera singer and she does some great like content as well. 
 
25:43 - Alexis (Host) 
Amazing. How great is TikTok? 
 
25:45 - Uma (Guest) 
Oh, so good. 
25:50 - Alexis (Host)
We’ve come up to the last question. If you could hear anyone else come on this podcast and answer these questions who would it be and why? 
 
25:56 - Uma (Guest)
Ali McGregor and Kate Miller-Heinke? Very selfishly, I'd love to hear them. 
 
26:01 - Alexis (Host)
I mean, all I can do is try to get them. 
 
26:06 - Uma (Guest)
That's right. I'd love to hear them. And I think you know there are some. There are some amazing artists that we're yet to actually see flourish. One of my dear, dear friends who's in the more comedy space, Hani Elrafi like, has had to really do his thing while having another full-time career at the same time. And I have been you, you know lucky in that respect, in that because I was studying a lot of the time you know, I had to focus on this stuff. 
 
26:42
That was, that was what I was doing, that's what I was studying, and then I was unwell so I couldn't be working all the time because my body couldn't handle it. And you know, lucky to have family support and all those kinds of things. But there are a lot of artists who don't have that and I'd love to hear from some of them to how they've made it work, how they've managed that balance. 
 
27:06 - Alexis (Host)
Yes, I love this. Well, oh, my goodness, Uma that was just delight. Thank you so much for coming or really letting me come through your creative job. No, well, good luck with all the future endeavours and, yeah, I can't wait to check out your show Intolerant, how exciting. 
 
27:23 - Uma (Guest)
It’s going to be really fun. 
 
27:27 - Alexis (Host)
I love it. 

14 | I Never Had a Backup Plan, It Was Always Photography with Anna Davis

In this episode, Alexis welcomes the very talented Anna Hartley, the creative force behind Anna Hartley Photography. From a budding fashion photographer in her university years to a renowned newborn photography specialist, Anna shares heartfelt stories of capturing the fleeting moments of newborns which was a natural path taken through her experiences as a new mother. 
 
Listen as she describes the challenges and rewards of her creative process and business, especially during the turbulent times of the COVID-19 pandemic. Whether you’re an aspiring photographer or just love a good creative story, this episode is packed with insights on staying true to your passion, adapting to life’s changes, and finding joy in the art of photography. 
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Anna on instagram; @annahartleyphotography
 
This episode was recorded on 21 January 2024 on the lands of the Kurnai Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
 
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
 
—---------------------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door. Hi Anna. 
 
00:52 - Anna (Guest) 
Hi Alexis, hello hello. 
00:55 - Alexis (Host) 
How you doing? I am so chuffed. 
 
00:56 - Anna Guest) 
I’m good, how you doing, you doing good? 
 
01:00 - Alexis (Host)
I'm good, I'm good. I am just so chuffed that you are coming through the creative door with me. 
 
01:06 - Anna (Guest)
I know, I love coming through the door. 
 
01:12 - Alexis (Host)
Yes. So for those who are listening, we have just cracked a West Coast Cooler Original yeah, which I've forgotten what these tasted like. 
 
01:23 - Anna (Guest)
I did forget what they tasted like, but I knew when we seen them in Foodworks today we needed them. We needed them in our life and it just takes us back. 
 
01:33 - Alexis (Host)
Full of cool kids. Full of cool kids. I think we should start with just how much of a talented bear that you are. I well thank you. You're very kind of you to say um for those listening, you have this beautiful business called Anna Hartley Photography. And you have done lots of different things in that space. Babies, little wee babies. 
 
02:10 - Anna (Guest) 
Lots of little newborns
 
02:11 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, but you've done your little fair share of you know doing wedding photos. 
 
02:17 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah, I started in weddings. My first five years of my business was solely doing weddings. Oh really, yeah, yeah. When I first started fresh out of uni, I booked a ton of weddings, and so for the first five years I only did weddings. That's all I did. And then I got pregnant with our first little baby, and when she was born I still had, I had racked up a number of weddings that I had to get through because I didn't realize the change and the shift that being a mom would would bring to my business. So I was like, yeah, cool, I'll have a baby and then I'll just keep working the way that I am. 
 
03:02
That'll work, that'll work and it did, it did. But I think I realized about probably like five or six months in I loved weddings and I and I was still always like my, I think starting my business I weddings wasn't the first thing that I wanted to do when I was at uni I majored in fashion photography and that's what I wanted to do 
 
03:29 - Alexis (Host) 
Really? That probably makes sense because you do love to play in that space. 
 
03:33 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah, but then I never wanted to and I never wanted to like move to move to Melbourne or move to Sydney and do that. And so I think when I finished, or like approaching finishing uni, I was like I don't know what I'm going to do now, because my major was fashion and then I just kind of went into weddings and weddings went really well and and it boomed and it was big. 
 
03:57
And then when I had Harlow I I just I don't know, all of a sudden I was like babies grow so fast. They do because you have this newborn and then in six weeks they're an entirely different baby and I think it just made me want to capture every single thing that she did. 
 
04:15
And then, from then, I just my focus changed and I just was like I think I just want to work with babies, and so that was the shift to newborn photography, was through Harlow and how quickly she changed and I just, yeah, it just fully changed the focus of my business. 
 
04:36
And so I spent a lot of time and money in learning and doing different courses and workshops of you know, how to wrap babies and how to safely pose babies and how to do all these things. And I and I spent probably a good eight months on learning although I had a baby of my own at home but how to safely pose a baby in a photo shoot and how to tell if they're too hot or too cold or too, you know, and I and I just spent a really just just a lot of time on learning how I can safely, you know, pose babies and work with babies. And yeah, and that was the shift, and then I became a newborn photographer and then, yeah, now I that's solely mainly what I do 90 percent of my work is still newborns.
 
05:31 - Alexis (Host)
For those listening. You'd better check her out, because we're pretty good pretty cool. 
 
05:37 - Anna (Guest)
Oh, they're just they're born so perfect and they're just yeah, I just love them and I love the way that you can just, you can just pose them and you can just. 
 
05:47 - Alexis (Host)
They're like a little little clay 
 
05:52 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah, they're like a little piece of plasticine. You just kind of mold them into what you want them to do and they just they do it. Yeah, they're beautiful
 
05:56 - Alexis (Host)
So that obviously you know you get to change um the space in which you work in but, I'm curious, like what does a creative space mean to you and why, like I know, you have a studio, yeah, but you haven't always had a studio? 
 
06:20 - Anna (Guest)
I think for me, that question is and it's going to be different for everyone but for me, a creative space isn't always I'm in my studio and now I'm creative, or I'm in my office and I'm editing and now I'm creative because I'm in those designated spaces where I, that's where I work. For me, you know, I find that my creative space is like who I'm with and where I'm at at the time and I think, being a photographer, that could change with the family that you have or the location that you're at or you know, and I'm big on the sun and I tell all my clients like when they book with me, I'll book a session based on, you know, we always have like a little bit of consultation on the phone before a session. 
 
07:12
You know, do you like the beach? Do you like the bush? Are you more of a rustic country person? You, you know, and based on what they choose and what um location they think will fit best for their family, I will then source that location but then I'll work out where the sun's going to be. So my creative space I think it's where the sun is, because I know where I want the sun to be in those places. So I don't think I have like a designated creative space of my studio or my home office. I think my space is where I am at with my clients, yeah, and where that's going to, and it's different for everyone. You know, like, if you choose the beach, it's going to be at this time, because I know that that's where I love to photograph someone at the beach if it's used to I know that bush is going to be an hour earlier than the beach, because that's when the light comes through the trees and yeah. 
 
08:09
So I think my creative space changes every single time that I work with somebody, but I always come back to my office and my creative space then, when I'm editing, needs to be I need to have my music and I need to have something that I'm listening to, that is, I can't edit in silence, I need, I always need music and I need. I need something to listen to. 
 
08:35 - Alexis (Host)
Have you got a particular genre of music?
 
08:38 - Anna (Guest)
Oh, I've got my playlist. Yeah, yeah. I've got my editing playlist, but I think um as far as a creative space. It's not always my studio. It's not always my office. 
 
08:49 - Alexis (Host)
It's a bit more fluid than that. 
 
08:50 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah it is. It's definitely more fluid than that. It's where I am with those people and what they want, it's always the sun. I just, yeah, we did a photo shoot this afternoon. We did. We did yes we did, yeah, and we got there at the right time, when I wanted the sun to be there, and I moved you pretty quickly to where I wanted you to be with the sun, yeah, so I feel like my creative space is when I have somebody in that space, which is outdoor, where the sun is, and I'll move you to where I want you to be. 
 
09:26 - Alexis (Host)
Do you know what's so interesting that you say that, because I've worked with you a fair few times, yeah, and you always do that. Yeah, it's not until you actually say it that I'm like oh, yeah, you do do that. 
 
09:38 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah, my creative space is with the sun. Yeah, yeah yeah, because if somebody says, you know I'll do a photo shoot at like yeah, can we do like 12 o'clock in the day, I'm like no no because the sun isn't where I want it and so I think when I get the sun where I want it and I'm in the space where I want, that's when I can be creative, is when I have the people that I'm photographing in the location that they have chosen or that I've suggested, and I always know where I can get the sun and the clouds where I want them at that time and I think that's where magic happens is when you just get all the lighting right. 
 
10:15 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, yeah. It almost leads me into my next question. What are you the most proud of creating, and how did that come about? Do you think? 
 
10:32 - Anna (Guest)
Like the thing I'm most proud of creating or things that I'm most proud of in my business? 
 
10:40 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, I mean both 
 
10:45
Because I think that, I don't know, being proud is a big question. Um, I don't think I have a particular piece where I'm like that is my proudest piece that I've ever taken. Yeah, um, early on in my, you know, starting my business and you know, in the first probably like five to ten years, I used to always enter competitions and you'd win and then you'd be proud of doing those things, you know you'd be proud of a little bit and you'd be like, oh, that's really cool, like I did that or that was an international award, that was really cool. But I think if I look back and I've had my business now for 19 years I think the biggest things where I can look back and be like big, big points that I'm proud of, they would be that 14 years ago I left my job my nine to five because I realized that I had made this. 
 
11:39
The income that I was making on this on the sidelines, was bigger than what I was making nine to five and so for the last 14 years I've worked for myself and I remember leaving that job and then moving into a scene where I was like I just work for myself now, that was a big, big thing, where I was like that was a proud point for me. Um, and then I think moving forward from that seven years ago was when I got my first commercial space and for me that was a big, because it was like I'm not a home-based business now, I have a commercial studio, and so that was something that I was proud of at the time. So I think there's there's always going to be like little things you're proud of, but then there's the big things, that it was like that's life-changing. 
 
12:27
I work for myself. Now I don't work at home. Now I work in a commercial space. Um, day-to-day little little things. That make me proud, though, is I love when I'll be talking to a client on the phone, because I always do like a little phone consultation with whoever I'm working with, because I feel like it's important to not only book a session online, that you actually talk to them, and and be have that
 
12:53 - Alexis (Host) 
Have that rapport with each other
 
12:55 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah and in those, in those you know little phone conversations and little consultations I have with people, um, so many times people like just photos of the kids. I hate photos of me. We're just doing photos of kids. I'm like, well, dress that you might be in some, because whether you come in track pants or not, you're going to be in some because I'm going to make you not in a bad way. But, and every single time I will take a photo of that parent and I spin my camera around and they look at it and they love it and they're like I hate photos of myself, but I love that one and there's a little part of you that it is…
 
13:34
It's, it's like I had, yeah, this is a little happy, proud feeling because you've made that person feel good. My camera can only take what's in front of them and what was in front of them was them and yeah, that's, that's a nice little proud feeling. That happens multiple times a week. And then I think newly, moving into within the last 16 months, um, I started doing art therapy and working with clients who, a lot of them, are like I have no creative bone in my body. I don't know how to be creative. I don't know how to do art, I don't know how to do anything, and during sessions, over time, even in the first sessions that we work together, they create a piece and all of a sudden they finish the piece and they realize that they can do that and that and I think seeing them so happy and so proud makes me proud that it's almost like you, you know, you drew it out of them and they they could do it, but they needed a nudge and so I think there's
 
14:42 - Alexis (Host)
A little guidance
 
14:43 - Anna (Host) 
Yeah, and so I think, like I don't think that I could look at the time that I've been a photographer and been like I'm proud of, like this piece or this piece. I'm just proud of a few big pieces which were big moments, but then, daily and weekly, I'm just proud of making my clients feel good yeah. 
 
15:08
I think that's. I love that. I love making them feel good yeah, I love it when they make something in a in an art therapy session and it makes them feel good. I love taking a photo of somebody and then they feel good in that photo and 
 
15:24 - Alexis (Host)
It’s a gift, and you’re able to give that gift in all of those capacities I love that. On the flip side of talking about things that we're proud of, have you experienced or had like a challenge that sort of impacted your creativity and, if you don't mind, sharing like if there was one? And what was the major lesson? 
 
15:55 - Anna (Guest)
For me personally a challenge like business wise or or creativity?
 
16:07 - Alexis (Host) 
Creativity, like I think I can speak for myself, there have been times where my physical health with my crips diagnosis in my hand that has impacted my creativity yeah yeah, so you know health wise and um, but I mean, it could be anything yeah yeah, it could be, business could be. 
 
16:27 - Anna (Guest)
I feel like I've been pretty fortunate with like um, physical health and mental health, that I've not had big challenges with those things, and even um, and even you know, during you know, having kids. I feel like after the birth of all our kids, it kind of like rebirthed creativity because I had like a new little person to you know, like my kids would go down for a nap and I would just like pose them and do all these things. 
 
16:59 - Alexis (Host)
You know, you are my play toy
 
17:07 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah, there is. Yeah, but I think for me, probably my biggest challenge, that impacted probably my creativity the most and I hate to say it was COVID. Yeah, because and I and I hate to say that that was what it was but I'd always had like such a smooth run and I'd never really had. You know, obviously there's like things in your life that come and go and they're hard, and but none of them really impacted the way that, like I always went to work or I'd always like that didn't impact what I was doing. 
 
17:38
And then in COVID especially living in Victoria, with our lockdowns I was closed for 11 months. You know, and that wasn't 11 months in a row, but 11 months all up, like, and it was you'd open, then, instead of having newborns, I had babies that were coming in that were, like you know, 12 or 13 weeks old and I had to then, you know, be like you can't fit in my baskets. And then I have to rework what I do because you've booked a newborn session and then now I'm reopened and I've got to change and I think it kind of threw me because I hadn't worked for so long and everyone I don't want to say everyone, but I know a lot of people around me in COVID were struggling, sort of. You know, we're just in this space of nothing and then you go back to work and I'm like this isn't, it was just a new, 
 
18:38
I had to just re rethink of every session that I did because it was all different and even the sessions that the sessions that I had outdoors, the first three weeks of outdoor sessions, anyone under the age of 12 had to wear a mask, so, yeah. So then I was like I can only work with kids under 12 and their parents were wearing a mask, standing at the side, and that, for me, we made it funny, we made it what it was, but I feel like, for me, having babies in the studio that were meant to be newborns and now they weren't, and just re changing props and changing like babies that are 12 weeks don't want to be wrapped like a, like a 10 day old baby. Yes, it's so different, and so I think it didn't. I made it work and everyone was happy with what I gave them, but I feel like that was probably my biggest challenge.
 
19:31
And I'm blessed that that was probably in the 19 years of my business that was the only time that I had that was, I don't know, COVID was a weird time. I think being closed just changed my thoughts and how I thought about you know. I just I think, being somebody that's creative, you always just want to be doing things and you know, 
 
20:01 - Alexis (Host) 
It is difficult to not have the ability to be creative. 
 
20:04 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah, because you can't do your outlet, yeah, you can't do what makes you happy, yeah, and then not being able to do what makes me happy for so long, but then going back and it's entirely different. And so I think, yeah, I think, I think that would, I think that's got to be it, yeah like yeah, yeah, yeah. 
 
20:22 - Alexis (Host)
 I find that this is, this is gonna be an interesting question as a photographer, but is there an object that you can't live without while you're creating, and why? 
 
20:32 - Anna (Guest)
I mean probably my camera. 
 
20:34 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why I was like I feel like it's, but then it could be something sentimental, something random that you might take with you. 
 
20:42 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah, look, I'm not like one of those people that I don't carry anything else around apart from the camera. Yeah, camera, I've always got a spare, I've got two spares. Oh, camera, I've always got a spare, I've got two spares, oh good, yeah, yeah, can't just take one camera. Yeah, I think my camera, but I don't think the sun is an object, but the sun is a massive object. If I could control the weather. No, I just, I just yeah, I don't carry anything around that I you know need for good luck or anything like that, but I do, I always do have a couple of spare cameras, but yeah,
20:20 - Alexis (Host) 
And you're paying attention to where the sun's going. 
21:22 - Anna (Host) 
It's just, yeah, like I'm not going to photograph you at like 11.30am. No it's the sun. It's the sun and the camera. 
 
21:33 - Alexis (Host)
True true, true. If someone wanted to do what you do, Anna, what piece of wisdom or advice would you give that person? 
 
21:45 - Anna (Guest)
Do you know what I love this question heaps. Really I love it, I love it. 
 
21:50 - Alexis (Host) 
It fills my cup every time I meet people and their answers. 
 
21:54 - Anna (Guest)
I love it, because, going all the way through high school and then through to finishing year 12, multiple times people like what are you gonna do? I'm like I want to be a photographer yeah, cool, but what else? No, that's all I'm gonna do, I just want to be a photographer. And then leaving school and then going to uni and doing a diploma of photography, people like what are you gonna do? I'm like I'm gonna be a photographer, what do you mean? They're like well, you gotta have a backup, and I never had a backup. I didn't have a backup because I felt like if I had a backup, I might have done the backup. So I just didn't want to have one. 
 
22:40
But I think, having, being somebody that wants to do something in a field that's not a nine till five, you're always going to have people like What are you going to do, though? What are you going to do? So I think for me, it's like if you want to do something, you can do it, but no one, you have to make yourself do it. No one's going to do it for you. If you want to do it, you just have to work a different job until you can make it work or do, but just yeah. I think you just have to block everyone else out and just do it. Work really hard. 
 
23:21
Remember when I went to uni, I was doing that five days a week. I worked at a restaurant six nights a week and then I worked at the surf shop on the weekends and so I had one night a week off. That was it. Yeah, and I did that for two years and everyone kept saying in that duration of that time, what are you going to do when you finish? I'm like I want to be a photographer. 
 
23:50 - Alexis (Host) 
Are you guys not hearing me?
 
23:52 - Anna (Guest)
This is what I'm going to do, and so it was. It was really hard and even like booking weddings in the beginning was really hard, but I knew that I could do it and I knew that that's all I wanted to do. 
 
24:02 - Alexis (Host) 
And then like you said it, it evolved and changed, yeah, and, and moved towards new things.
 
24:09 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah, definitely, since I had kids, like especially, I think I think having Harlow like it just changed what I wanted to do and I'm like I loved weddings and I loved it at the time. 
 
24:20
But then, having Harlow, I just realized how quickly babies change and I'm like I want to capture that. I want to capture that little bit of, you know, newborns. You've got four weeks to capture that because, because between five and six weeks they look entirely different. They're not a newborn anymore, then they're a baby, and then they're a toddler and then and I, yeah, so for me I was like I want to do that. I want to capture that little special moment and I think for parents that that bit goes as a blur, like you hardly remember that. You remember bits and pieces, but just to capture the details of, like, all the little things. I'm like I want to. I want to do that. I want to be the person that captures that little blur. 
 
25:08 - Alexis (Host)
I love it. Extra question, what resources would you recommend if someone wanted to develop their creative process like and do what you do? 
 
25:20 - Anna (Guest)
I think all the resources are different for, for every field that you work in, you know whether it's you know, being a photographer, being a tattoo artist, being a singer, being you know they're all, they're all going to be like a different thing that you need to tap into. I think that if you have something that you want to do, you just need to like, follow it yourself or find a tribe that's going to support you to do that and and go for it. You can jump on Instagram or Facebook and be so inspired by so many people that are doing good things and you're like I want to be that, I want to do that, and you're like, yeah, cool, do it. You know what I mean. I feel like these days, you can be inspired by anyone because you feel like you can do anything yeah. 
 
26:08 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah. If you could have someone else anyone come on to this podcast and answer these questions? Yeah, who would like to have on here and whY
 
26:29 - Anna (Guest)
Who would I choose? This one. I don't think I could answer it with like one person.
 
26:34 - Alexis (Guest) 
No, give me a few,
 
26:35 - Anna (Host) 
All right. So if I go with people that I personally know and that's where I'm going to go, yep, I think that Naphellel Watts from Saltwater Creative. 
 
26:47
She is an incredible artist, yep she also runs workshops for resin and pottery and, amongst other things, she's just. She's an amazing businesswoman and I think she's inspirational to so many people more than she knows. And so I think Naphelle would be amazing, and I also think that Zoe Doland who is also. I don't know if you're familiar with her art?
 
27:11 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah her artwork is stunning. 
 
27:15 - Anna (Guest)
I think she would be really fun to talk to as well. 
 
27:18 - Alexis (Host)
Good choices, yeah. Good choices. Anna, thank you so much for coming through the creative door, and being on the podcast. 
 
27:26 - Anna (Guest) 
Oh thank you, Alexis 
 
27:28 - Alexis (Host) 
It was such a joy. Loved it. Love you, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

13 | Feeding Your Inner Artist with Hew Parham

In this episode, we dive deep into the world of creativity with Adelaide's own clown, actor, and director, Hew Parham. Known for his unique comedic characters and acclaimed performances like Symphonie Of The Bicycle and A Not So Trivial Pursuit. 
 
In this episode, we chat with Hew about his creative process, the importance of physical and mental space in his work, and the challenges and triumphs that come with being a professional clown and performer. Whether he's mentoring with the British troupe Spymonkey or performing his beloved character Giovanni, Hew's dedication to his craft and passion for pushing artistic boundaries shines through.
 
Tune in for an inspiring conversation that explores the highs and lows of a life dedicated to bringing joy and thoughtfulness to audiences around the world.
 
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Hew on instagram; @hewparham
 
This episode was recorded on 9 December 2023 on the lands of the Kaurna Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
 
Creative references from Hew:
Pema Chodron - When Things Fall Apart
James Thiérrée
Julia Cameron - The Artist’s Way
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
 
—-----------------------------------------
 
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door conversations along the way. Welcome to. 
 
00:52 - Alexis (Host)
Hello Hugh, how are you going? 
 
00:54 - Hew (Guest)
I'm good. Good, it's early, but we're here. 
 
00:55 - Alexis (Host)
We're in rainy Adelaide. What have you done? What is this? I know I wanted the sun. 
 
01:02 - Hew (Guest)
I promised you hot weather, the other day I was like it's good beach weather and then it's like Not acceptable. 
 
01:14 - Hew (Guest)
I'm good. I'm good. Yeah, I've had a really good week. I've been working with some dancers on a piece about loneliness I love this which was really, really cool. It was just working as like an outside eye dramaturg kind of working with text, just because those guys don't work with text a lot, so that was really fun. I actually had a really fun kind of nice. Kind of was nice to kind of waltz in and go yeah, that's good. Okay, bye. 
 
01:41 - Alexis (Host)
I love it. 
 
01:43 - Hew (Guest)
Rather than the week before was like I don't know what to do about this. Yeah, it's funny. You have some weeks that are like and then other weeks are. Yeah, that's the creative life. 
 
01:54 - Alexis (Host)
It is yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming through the creative door. And you are such a talented bear, such a talented bear. You are a professional talented bear, such a talented bear. You are a professional clown, you're an actor, you direct things that you were just saying before and I don't know. You're just such a champion in like lifting others up and doing so many amazing things. 
 
02:18 - Hew (Guest)
Oh, thank you.  
 
02:22 - Alexis (Host)
It's so interesting because, like we're talking about, like creative spaces, but for you, I'm curious, like what does a creative space mean for you, cause it could be very different depending on what you're doing right. 
 
02:49 - Hew (Guest)
Yeah, absolutely, um, I I'm pretty like in terms of like I'm pretty bad at home, I think I need a. I mean, it depends, sometimes I can kind of get into a pretty good writing mojo, depending on the day, but I do, I mean, I guess, in terms of like a physical space, like I often I do prefer a studio if I can get one, studio if I can get one, and then, um, uh, because I guess I find my work is often, um, quite physical, or often I kind of write a lot. I would say I write a lot through the body, so it's good for me to. 
 
03:17
I find, rather than you know, I think, if I sit at the laptop and write too much, often you find it's you go to read it out later and it's a bit stale, a bit laptopy, so I kind of find sometimes just being able to roam around in the space often probably like voice record a lot lie in the corner, have a cry, get back up again, play music, sort of. You can feel like you can be a bit of a disaster, um in the best possible way um, I made a show a few years ago called Rudy's the Rinse Cycle, and I had a studio of my own at the time. Yeah, and. 
 
03:52
I was like I would never have been able to make that show without that studio, because I don't know whether I was a bit blocked coming into it. And then it was only. I was in the Cabaret Festival, which is a pretty big festival in Adelaide, and it was about two weeks out and I didn't have anything. It was just like, oh my God, and so, but because I had that studio, I just went in from like 9 am to 11 o'clock at night and I don't know just be able to kind of, like you know, write and then kind of sit and look out the window and write and then sit out the window and yeah, that kind of space to kind of be able to designate I often find helps me a little bit. Um, mentally, mentally, I had this kind of funny thought. I got this show, symphony, the bicycle and in a weird way, like I've said, this thing where I go. 
 
04:39
I don't know if I would have been able to write that show if it wasn't for lockdown in a way, because like it was sort of like one maybe I had a deadline and to present a draft, but actually kind of having that space at that time was really massive. 
 
04:55
And then I was also really lucky to get JobKeeper, which I think just having that freedom and income and you know that steady income for that bit, and I was went to this conference recently they're talking about this universal basic income for artists and this, you know this thing going on Ireland and I certainly found, when I had, you know, I had that income coming in, that I could actually just I could every day so just get up without kind of having to go off and do other things and just write. 
 
05:29
I'm sure it wasn't perfect. Maybe I'm looking back on it romantically a little bit, but I think sometimes I find having that kind of separation or I guess recently, when I got a grant to work on a new show and I guess to have that three weeks specifically that I could kind of go and dedicate myself to and really kind of this is the time to work on this, I find sometimes when my brain is a bit split in four or five different directions and I'm, you know, I'm going to gig if I'm doing other kind of stuff and then things like that. Then I guess that I find sometimes that's tricky to kind of really go deep with something. So yeah, that's a few things in regards to space 
 
06:09 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, it's um, I think sometimes it is nice to separate, you know, home work, you know, and sort of have that actual physical difference in environment yeah, I mean not for everybody, but sometimes it's a frame of mind too, but yeah, yeah, I think it is nice to, yeah, be able to step into or out of. 
 
06:38 - Hew (Guest)
Yeah, like I think at home it's just so easy to get. Well, I'll just do a little bit of this and so it's much easier to procrastinate and sort of put some washing on. 
 
06:49 - Alexis (Host)
Put some washing on yeah, yeah, um, yeah. 
 
06:54 - Hew (Guest)
But then I think there's times I get into pretty good modes, um, and I guess even maybe a designation of space within the house. I sometimes find, as I think, when I've got sort of the spare room which is kind of set up for my creative room, a little office, a bit more of my office, and I think for a while I didn't have that kind of set up and at some point I really actually kind of specified no, this is that space for that, and to kind of almost go through that kind of creative door in a way that you go, okay, this is the space to kind of be creative and throw my phone into the river so you don't look at it. And it's like, oh God. 
 
07:33 - Alexis (Host)
You've got to put it in one of those jars that has a lock or a timer or something. 
 
07:36 - Hew (Guest)
I've been thinking about getting a phone prison. Oh man. 
 
07:44 - Alexis (Host)
You have been part of so many projects. You have created so many amazing things, so this is probably going to be a hard question. But is there a body of work or something you've been part of that you're most proud of, and how did it come about? 
 
08:00 - Hew (Guest)
I mean like all of them in different ways. I think a bit like Symphony of the Bicycle. I guess I'm proud of that. In different ways, I think it'd be like Symphony of the Bicycle. I guess I'm proud of that in some senses of I developed that. That took about seven to eight years to develop that show and sometimes you wonder with projects like should you let it go? And I often think with that one where it goes, it's a 90 minute beast. 
 
08:25
It started out as I had this idea of wanting to make a 20 minute clown show about a cyclist, just like a really cute little silent kind of thing, and then it ended up being this enormous behemoth, was like 20 accents and all these characters and but I guess it's. 
 
08:46
I kind of. There was this determination to tell this story in that show, especially about this real-life character, Gino Bartali, who was a cyclist who won the Tour de France in 1938 and 1948. And there's this thing which I always found fascinating about him is that during World War II he would go on these secret training rides to save, transport these documents, to save Jews in Northern Italy, and he never told anyone about it until near where he died. And I guess there was something about that, that nobility, and there was something about him that I kind of went. It was almost like part of me that I needed to explore. And then it's interesting working with collaborators. I don't know it's like and I don't bemoan any of them, but I think I guess it's sometimes and I probably as a director as well I've got to be careful when I'm trying to shape things away from maybe where the performer might want to be going but, I just had this feeling that I wanted to tell this story
 
09:50
I kind of it really felt like it was going away from it. 
 
09:52
I don't know whether it was obstinate or not, whether it was him, because he's a pretty dogmatic, stubborn character, but I just it's like I felt like I had to really really hold firm to that thread of the story and really wanting to tell it, and at times it was going in all sorts of other directions. 
 
10:08
And then it's, I think at some point people started to get it and they started to go no, he's, and it became such a massive part of the show and I guess then doing the show and then when people hear that story they're like, oh, now I want to Google him and I want to learn about him and stuff like that, and I go that I guess validation of yeah, I don't know it's sort of interesting about when to let people in and when to let other influence in and then when to kind of go to hold firm to an idea and kind of go no, I need to tell this. So I think that in a funny way kept me going across seven, eight years to kind of keep it going and through covid and through lockdown and stuff like that that are going now it's sort of I'm still determined to make it happen in a way. 
 
10:57 - Alexis (Host)
Lots of body of work to be proud of. Yeah, yeah on the flip side of things that you're proud of. I'm curious have you had challenges that you've sort of come across, that have stunted or affected your creativity? And if so, what do you think the major lessons or lesson has been?
 
11:20 - Hew (Guest)
Lots of things, lots like perfectionism is a pretty big thing for me. Highly perfectionistic it's actually. When you said, when you asked the question is, what came to mind was a bit my other show I've sort of got going at the moment A Not So Trivial Pursuit, and that show I it's. It ended up not being again maybe the show that I expected I was gonna make, make I was going to make this this idea of
 
11:50 - Alexis (Host)
Does it ever end up the way that we? 
 
11:53 - Hew (Guest)
Often? It doesn't. No, no. And sometimes I think you've also just got to let it go and let it live and take on what form it wants to take on and let yourself be surprised. And um, yeah, I guess you know it is that balance of when to take on and let yourself be surprised. And yeah, I guess it is that balance of when to let go and then when to hold firm and but, yeah, that show. I had this crazy idea of doing six different scenes based on the different categories of Trivial Pursuit, with six different clown directors from around the world, and then it just turned out to be an absolute nightmare, like trying to get everyone together and timing. And then in Adelaide, we were in this little bubble for a while a bit after you know, it was sort of actually things were quite good, and then we opened up the borders and then Omicron hit and then three of the directors that are here were parents, and then it was like they had to homeschool their kids. Schools closed down and then, um, and then I'm not exactly sure what I was going through mentally at the time I don't think I was maybe in the best state of mind like a few things had sort of happened and then I was finding, when I was even just trying to make the show as it was. 
 
13:13
I was it's funny I was really, I was giving up on everything. I was giving up on all my ideas. I would. I'd never really had that sense before. I had other times where I'd go, oh, that's shit or that doesn't work, but it was this sort of more, this real kind of defeated, like, this sort of real kind of collapse, this sort of um, yeah, it was this sort of very strange state that I hadn't experienced before, whether it was a bit of a depression or something and whether there's a few other things that were happening in life at that time. So I I mean it was probably a big help with some of my directors that were there probably helping and kind of helping persist through it. I remember there was this I did a session with my teacher in Canada that just he was again like just show me anything. Like show me anything, anything, just anything, just get anything out. 
 
14:09
And I had to really like, like, just off the floor. 
14:13 - Alexis (Host)
Like you're really like pushing uphill yeah yeah,
 
14:15 - Hew (Guest)
But then sometimes you just like it's like you just hang on to something, like you just hook onto something, and I think there's this character in the show the rules Nazi, and I think at that moment it was like oh, I think there's something in him. 
 
14:31
I think there's something in him, so let's like follow him for a little bit and then and then I think, where there was almost these kind of like ice picks that you sort of just kind of found up, like you found that bit and then, and then maybe that gave me a little bit of scaffolding to kind of go, and then you sort of, and then find another little bit. 
 
14:48 - Alexis (Host)
It's such a challenge to really just trust the process and if you've not done it before, it's being comfortable in the uncomfortable and yeah, it's just everyone tells you just to follow the process, but, like when you've not done that before, you're just like what do you mean? It all feels yeah yeah hard and shit and there's resistance and yeah you know you self-doubt and all of the yeah, it's tough. 
 
15:21 - Hew (Guest)
It's probably where a lot of projects have stalled for me is probably when I've become focused on the product. So, however scary, I've got to find a way to go back to process and go, and that might be like what do I want to discover about myself, you know? Or I just want to work on my writing and I want to work on my dialogue, or, yeah, I want to work on through this show building my physicality and getting to do better than my physicality. Or I'm gonna work on my accents and this is a really great having you to work on my voice and stuff like that you can kind of look at again. Oh, that’s weird. Then you also quite good. 
 
16:07 - Alexis (Host)
Out of curiosity do you have like a thing or an object that you can't live without when you create? 
 
16:15 - Hew (Guest)
Yes, there's a few things. I'm a bit of a pen obsessive, love Officeworks. This is my favourite pen. 
 
16:25 - Alexis (Host)
We're not sponsored by Officeworks, by the way. 
 
16:27 - Hew (Guest)
Or by Uniball. Hi, uniball, if you're there, I love your 0.7 signo. Uh, that's my favourite. My favorite pen because I do uh, I do journal quite a bit. Um, there's a thing called The Artist’s Way um, which is the book, yes, um, which is probably like probably a lot of people in the arts have probably done and gone like oh, my God like it will drive you crazy. Yeah, but it is transformative, so no wonder it keeps going around. 
 
17:01 - Alexis (Host)
And I guess I was just speaking to someone a couple of days ago who just bought it as well, I was like oh, it's making the rounds again. 
 
17:13 - Hew (Guest)
Making the rounds again. Yeah. I saw some in a cafe a little while ago and I was like, oh God, maybe for those who don't know, it's a 12, what do they call it? A 12 week recovery program, recovery program? I don't know. Is it program? I can't speak For creatives or I guess anyone really, but there's a thing in that is the morning pages, which is three pages freehand every morning. 
 
17:34 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, there's. There's something about that physicality pen to paper. I don't know what that is 
 
17:37 - Hew (Guest)
Yeah yeah and then I've probably started to use voice notes a lot and voice recording.
 
17:45
I love it yeah, and kind of, because I get like maybe being with dialogue and stuff like that, that's sort of trying to come up, I think if you can talk it out, and then it is more conversational and you get weirder phrasing and it's more real phrasing, and then and then taking it and transcribing it, and then you might need to muck stuff around a little bit. 
 
18:05
So I find that quite good. I use butcher's paper a lot, butcher's paper and sharpies, so I do a process called clustering, which is that's an essential part of my writing process. So I get a big piece of butcher's paper and in the middle I might write something like images and desires of myself as the ultimate scientist I wanted to explore a scientist character and then I circle that and then I just write like absolute gung-ho, like write a sentence, circle it, write another sentence, circle it, write da, da, da, and then you kind of you might go to the end of what I call a stanza. You might have I don't know 14 of them or you might have 30 of them. Go back to the middle circle, write, write write until you fill up the whole butcher's paper. 
 
19:00
So it's full of these bubbles amazing and then what you do is um, I get another notepad and then I um, close my eyes and I spin the cluster and whatever I put my finger on, whatever a bubble I put my finger on, they go. I'm an Albert Einstein looking at a nuclear bomb or whatever. 
 
19:23 - Hew (Guest)
Albert Einstein looking at a nuclear bomb, and then then spit it again. Whatever bubble I go, he thinks this is a bad idea or whatever um, and then I'll spit it again until I don't know. It's sort of about like 14 to 20 lines forms a poem and then the title of the poem is the top, which is images desires for myself as the ultimate scientist, or ultimately hungry, or ultimately a character, or my ultimate song could be anything, and then you read the poem and then you read the poem top down, and then the trippy thing is is read the poem bottom up and then, some reason, 95% of the time reading the poem bottom up, you're like it makes sense where you go. 
 
20:11
Oh, sense, or you go, oh that's the show or that's the bit, or so. I find that a really great process for, like, I guess, a lot of trying where possible, where I can go to the right brain yeah, at times trying to be too logical, often that's a good circuit breaker. If I need a, a thing I'm a bit stuck maybe go to that or, like, often use it in a lot of initial stages and then to kind of to find stuff. There might just be an image in it that's really unexpected that you go. Oh, or the way two lines join up which kind of go that to that goes. Oh my God, that makes so much sense. But it's sort of to that goes. Oh my god, that makes so much sense. But it's sort of it's a slightly deeper place or something like that. So, um, I find that a really great, a really great tool. 
 
21:03
Um, music is massive for me. I like I work with music 99% of the time. That's probably one of my biggest tools and triggers. And, um, often I like I write to use a lot of ambient music, but then I like to also surprise myself as well, and often music will lead and I will kind of I think I got from the artist way. It's not that it tells you to do it, but they said this thing about go on artist dates and so take yourself out to do different things. And a thing that I did was in my car I've got a six CD player and I find, you know, with streaming, you know, often it sort of feels like it's trying to lead you where you want to go or what your tastes are with things like Spotify, whereas I find sometimes going to the library and then just picking out six random CDs and kind of going oh okay, that looks interesting, that looks interesting.
 
22:00
And then putting those, and then I put those six CDs in my car for two weeks and then I'd kind of just listen to them, and then it's often it's like oh, that's crap, that's crap, that's crap.
 
22:09
But then you go, oh, that's interesting, yeah, I hadn't thought of that style before, or and then like and then I used to when I had a really old, crappy car which didn't have anything, just had the radio, and then often I just would go between different radio stations and sort of go just like in the car and then sort of like you know a big part of Giovanni and how that grew, was just listening to SBS radio and just trying to practice gibberish along to that, was trying to kind of create this almost Italian kind of gibberish to that. 
 
22:39 - Alexis (Host)
Giovanni's, one of your shows?
 
22:40 - Hew (Guest)
Yeah, so it was an Italian waiter character that I played, yeah, um, so there's things like that. I guess you know where possible like tools and resources, you know like where, if you can, you know your community, your collaborators, your peers is a big part of it finding those people that you really trust, your feedback and that you can kind of go to and that you sort of you've got a really good simpatico with. Probably for me, you know therapy, you know it's probably because it is, you know, it does bring up stuff and my work is very personal as well. So I think I mean I'm sometimes a little bit obsessive on that side of as well, but, um, those kind of, I guess, tools of taking care of yourself. 
 
23:24
You know I've found at times, therapy really useful and then other kind of self-care things, um, spiritually, books like um Pema Chodron’s When Things Fall Apart there's often a book I go back to. I've found it's weirdly, I've found that book around the world when I've been in moments of distress. It's sort of. It's like it's almost kind of pops up. 
 
23:44
It just pops up and it's like everything will be okay and um also there's, I kind of think I mean I probably need to get a bit better at it at right at the moment, but it's also like in your skills and looking at your skills. And I think another thing I got from artist way was I like one of the artist dates and I had this thing of, for some reason I went there was this shop and it had this box set of DVDs probably watching DVDs a bit more of this French clown for Jacques Tati and I kept on looking at that box set. No, no, it's maybe a hundred and ten dollars or something like that. 
 
24:22
And I guess the Artit’s Way was quite good at going. You know, feed your artist and so what did your artist want? And I think I need to buy that box set and I bought that box set and um and his movies they're great with them in. They're slow and they're ponderous at times. But then what was really good was they would have these different directors analyze the movie afterwards and I actually kind of found them like they were breaking down comedy and they're breaking down the way comedy works and how he'd shoot and what he would do and certain gestures and other things that he did and actually through that I went oh, this is my craft like this is my craft, so like, , and then you know, and then. 
 
24:58 - Alexis (Host)
You had the aha moment 
 
25:01 - Hew (Guest)
Yeah So what I every now and then what I need to do is I'll go back to YouTube, you know, get YouTube resource, and then I might watch clown routines. Like I'll probably twice a year watch James Thierree who's Charlie Chaplin's grandson, who's just like like is there one, like can he share a bit of talent with someone else? 
 
25:20 - Alexis (Host)
How very dare you
 
25:23 - Hew (Guest)
He's like incredibly good looking. He's a phenomenal clown. He's so buff he, like he can roll a blade while playing the violin and then, he, he creates and directs and writes t, oh god, I'm like, oh he's, he's ripped. 
 
23:35 - Alexis (Host)
Got some bromance happening here, don't you
 
25:40 - Hew (Guest)
I'm like you're like, he’s ripped! oh my god, I need to, but like he's, but it's just, his skill, you know, and it's also it, it's so playful. And then, I guess, feeding yourself in that way, so even kind of going back to that, and even these sort of silly little clown routines that I might like or you know, I guess that's in some way that kind of goes ah, you know, that's your, you know. So I guess you know, whatever your field is, that you sort of also kind of um, remind yourself that it is your world and it's your skill and give to your artist and you know what kind of feeds the artist as well, you know so.  
26:26 - Alexis (Host)
As a as a musician, like some of my managers or like mentors have always said. It's like punters don't know necessarily and can't pinpoint it, but it's that authenticity and that, that thing that they can connect in and they don't know what that is, it's just something that they can latch onto right. If you could give one piece of advice or nugget of advice to another creative, what would it be? 
 
26:47 - Hew (Guest)
You know, a big part of clown is is like failure, I think, and being okay with failing and I guess sometimes we're afraid of I guess maybe sometimes it's even just that maybe even that first idea or dumping it out or it might be bad or something like that. 
 
27:07
And so I think sometimes just like or I can't remember who is it, is it Elizabeth Gilbert or Anne Lamott, whatever, talk about the shitty first draft, and I think the riot in a way is sort of just sometimes and it gets a bit like what my teacher would. Trivial pursuit was like just get it out, just get something out and then let's look on it and so then find that little scaffolding. So I guess sometimes just you know, finding another thing, my teacher would say it's, it's not work, it's puke. So he would say like vomited it out, and then you're like get it out, and then you can kind of look at it and you can find those little chunks and you can sort of go like, oh, that's actually that piece of pineapple is kind of interesting. Let's kind of put that over there. That's kind of unexpected. So I guess sometimes I think where maybe we can be kind of so paralyzed or so worried about doing perhaps anything, or like having the whole picture or something like that. 
 
28:05 - Alexis (Host)
So I think that we just don't start. 
 
28:07 - Hew (Guest)
We just don't start, you know, yeah, yeah. 
 
28:11 - Alexis (Host)
One last question. 
 
28:12 - Hew (Guest)
Yes. 
 
28:13 - Alexis (Host)
If you could have anyone come on to this podcast and answer these questions who would it be, and why? 
 
28:20 - Hew (Guest)
I was thinking about this one. It's like I mean, the dream would be Tom Waits. You know go to California and go to his farm and have a chat with Tom Waits that would be amazing. Um my friend, Ida Sophia, who's a visual artist here and she's started to do really um fascinating kind of immersive, durational performance art work um, which often is sort of very, very, very personal. 
 
28:51
There's been a couple of shows about her dad and I feel like it's a real, I think it's just, I guess, someone it's a friend and I kind of I'm not jealous at all, but I just actually kind of see, I feel like she has found her thing and she is in and really challenging this form in Australia and really kind of doing some really interesting work. Um, so yeah
 
29:13 - Alexis (Host)
Oh Hew , thank you so much for being on the podcast through the creative door. 
 
29:23 - Hew (Guest)
It's been an absolute pleasure thank you for having me. 
 
29:25 - Alexis (Host)
I love it. Thank you. 

12 | Embracing The Unfamiliar with Evie Lucas

In this episode, Alexis welcomes the multi-talented Evie Lucas. Evie, a musician and creator of a wearable art brand Seams Nice, chats about her glittery jackets, travel, plants, fabrics, and music career. From capturing vocals on an iPhone and singing in a Latvian choir to building a brand that clothed pop star Bebe Rexha, Evie advocates for embracing experimentation. She emphasises that stepping into the unknown can yield delightful results, encouraging everyone to explore uncharted creative territories.
 
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Evie on instagram; 
 
Music @ evielucasmusic 
Wearable Art @ seams.nice
DJ @ djevielucas
 
This episode was recorded on 7 December 2023 on the lands of the Kaurna Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
 
Creative references from Evie:
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door.
 
00:49 - Alexis (Host)
Hello, how are you going? 
 
00:52 - Evie (Guest)
I’m good thank you
 
00:55 - Alexis (Host)
Evie, I am so chuffed to be in your space. Thank you so much for coming on to Through The Creative Door. We're through your creative door. 
 
01:02 - Evie (Guest)
You're welcome. Yeah, it's a bit squishy. 
 
01:04 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, my God, it's not squishy, it's fucking amazing. So I'm looking around a beautiful room with beautiful plants and beautiful glittery jackets and lots of fabric and a keyboard and I don't know, just like all the things that just make me smile. 
 
01:23 - Evie (Guest)
Oh, that's good, that's good. You're found your way around there. You're in this, the sewing zone section yeah. 
 
01:31 - Alexis (Host)
I love it. Um, so a bit about you. I mean, you are such a clever, talented bear. You have so many creative ventures yeah,
 
01:43 - Evie (Guest)
 I can't help myself a little bit. I'm busy. 
 
01:48 - Alexis (Host)
No, in all of the best possible ways. I mean I have fanned girled you from afar. You are such a talented musician, um, and I also. You know you work with one of my dear friends. Sophie Head as well, which I'm very jealous of some of the creative stuff that you guys have done. 
 
02:11 - Evie (Guest)
Come join Tipsy Twain. 
 
02:17 - Alexis (Host)
Oh my God, it'd be so good, I know. Every time I was like what else are you doing for fringe? What? else are you doing? But you, you apart from, obviously, music being one of your major loves um you have a wearable art brand? 
 
02:33 - Evie (Guest)
Yeah I'd say, for seems nice, yeah, so that was the idea um to try and fund music, because music doesn't necessarily fund life. 
 
02:44 - Alexis (Host)
Don't I know it. 
 
02:46 - Evie (Guest)
So the idea was to make my own merch or make things that I could sell as merch and like why not have it be wearable art? I've started with tinsel jackets, but I want it to get a whole lot weirder. I've got like like lots of Pinterest boards and lots of um ideas that in the middle of the night you wake up to go yeah and then you wake up and go no, no, no, how?  
 
03:15
So um, like, there's tinsel jackets, but the next sort of thing is going to be like raincoats with the tops of the tinsel. You know it comes in a strip at the top, like to chop that up into different patterns and put that in a raincoat so it's glittery but bits don't fall off and go into you know your world, or a festival or whatever. Yeah, like I want to do things that are glittery and outrageous, but that the pieces don't come off, because if you shimmy hard enough in this, you'll get some casualties. 
 
03:39 - Alexis (Host)
So, um, I mean, you want to encourage the shimminess? 
 
03:51 - Evie (Guest)
Well, you can't help it when you wear one. I guess yeah, yeah, the shimmy movement, it's just, it's yeah Part of it, yeah, so. But um, yeah, I wanted to have something, um something else. But yeah, there's lots of other ideas and like I want to do beading things and, um, yeah, like sequins and beaded stuff. But I think the idea is too that I need to do something with my hands. I'm very busy. I can't kind of help it, so if I'm watching tv I can't really sit still, I've never been. I've always been like drawing or painting or something while watching tv to chill out. So sewing actually feels like that's why there's a tv in here too. It'll be like Will and Grace or Kath & Kim or like some kind of something on like my partner's. 
 
04:28
Like, can you? That's a Kath & Kim quote, isn't it? So like, um, I'll be watching tv and sewing. So, um, it was to. Yeah, it's all like inclusive, all part of it. So it fuels multiple kind of parts of life and people have been super stoked when they've gotten a jacket so far. So I've been really, really happy with that. Um, and like just all of the clients that I've had that have gotten jackets have just been so awesome and lovely people. Yeah, like I had two brides in Perth, actually two brides from WA both wear jackets for their wedding when they got married. That's sick, yeah, it was so good and like just their colour choices. And they sent me a little video. 
 
05:10
Someone else was in it wearing dancing, and it just looked like such a good time. So, yeah, I don't know, it just all feels a bit more like joyful. Like I did lots of paper art and stuff and it was something to look at but something to wear. Um, where someone else feels that stagecraft. 
 
05:29
So I, yeah, started this thing to fund music releases because if I can sell some jackets then I could make a song and release that and then that could sort of be like a roll-on sort of effect, bit of give me some momentum, um, and it definitely has kind of done that. All of these jackets this year have helped me get to um, go to Latvia and be part of that choir, so it did fund things towards music totally, and that was like music, family heritage, like grabbing back with both hands, like heritage and stuff that I haven't been able to have access to. So that's been really really cool. Um, yeah and um a friend um helped me design um, all of that, because I was just like I just can't do the branding stuff, like help me um with that. So she, she did that and it sort of really helped kind of like elevate it and um, working with someone else when you know you can't do a hundred percent of everything.
 
06:27
Because I would always try and do that. Like I started doing singing lessons and then I was like, okay, I want to do like, be singing and do a gig. Okay, I need to be able to play guitar too. Okay, um, I have to learn how to play guitar. And then I want to write some songs. Okay, well, I got to try and practice writing songs and then I want to try and release them. So I got to learn Ableton and then I got to record everything and try and do that and try mixing, and then that's kind of quite hard too, and then releasing and do social media and just like making the merch, and then so it was too many things, so just taking like a piece of it off was quite nice. 
 
07:01 - Alexis (Host)
It is nice to share the hats. It is definitely nice to share, yeah. 
 
07:05 - Evie (Guest)
I like wearing lots of them, but um, taking some off is nice too. 
 
07:10 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, it is nice yeah, since we are in this beautiful creative space of yours and I know we've spoken a little bit about you know some of the items in here but what does a creative space mean to you and why? 
 
07:26 - Evie (Guest)
um, I think I was always of this sort of opinion that the space has to feel right before you can do something creative, which that might be like me being really particular or something, but having, um, it's like part of the vibe or something that it has. The vibe has to be right to then feel relaxed enough to go do stuff. That, yeah, it was sort of about that. So I've got like I mean, there's kind of stuff everywhere but I know where everything is like this yeah, reeds of fabric everywhere, but organized chaos. 
 
08:02
If you were like, oh, have you got any wire? I'm like, yeah, it's down deep in that drawer there like I can pin to the left. 
 
08:07
Yeah, literally like where things are where everything is. I know where things are, so, um, but it's just to get the vibe right and I'll still like, maybe, be in the lounge room and sprawl fabric out everywhere if I need more, more space or whatever. But, um, yeah, this was meant to be, this was our dining room, but, like I am always eating on the go anyway, or uh, why do I feel so angry? 
 
08:35 - Alexis (Host)
oh right, I haven't eaten in 10 hours because I've been sewing like I just I don't do that too way, like I'm not sewing. I am not a sewer. YIi to anyone listening, do not ask me to sew anything, um, but yeah, I do that too. We're like not sewing. I am not a sewer. If I are to anyone listening, do not ask me to sew anything, um, but yeah, I do that too. I'm like so immersed, yeah, that I forget to eat and suddenly I'm like shaking. 
 
08:52 - Evie (Guest)
I'm like yeah, like oh my god, what do I need to? Yeah, so, um, yeah, having the space used as like a bit of an office or creative space was more like suited us better than having a dining room to sit and sit still, we like yeah, so yeah, just to have the space feel like the right vibe, pretty much. 
 
09:16 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, yeah, so true, it's nice to have a designated space. 
 
09:21 - Evie (Guest)
Yeah
 
09:23 - Alexis (Host)
Just to be in. I know we've touched on all of well, not all of, but quite a lot of your creative ventures, but is there a body of work or one particular project that you're most proud of creating, and how'd it come about? 
 
09:40 - Evie (Guest)
um, I guess probably I feel most proud at the moment of where all of this has kind of led me currently. Like it feels like I was going from thing to thing to thing for a long time in lots of different directions and then just going, oh right, why don't I just bring it all together? Then it all kind of made sense, because then I could make something and then make 20 other versions of it and then wear that thing in a film clip and then suddenly you've got something that does all go together. Um, and then I got this message on Instagram and it was like this person going oh, I'm, I'm a, I'm a stylist and I work in the entertainment industry and all this kind of stuff, and I was like, oh sure like me too, I was like I don't know who this person is, um, and just give like all the same info like, no worries, thanks for your message and just try and give, like you know, your good customer service and and 
 
10:36
chat to them and, um, I said they had some kind of project and if I wanted to um, know more details, what's a good email and whatever else. And I just said I've got what I've got available online at the moment, like some trench coats and jackets, but I'm totally happy to discuss with you and try and like. It's mostly about meeting deadlines. 
 
10:55
Someone will be like oh can I have this in LA by next Wednesday? And I go, oh my God, probably not. Like with the post, like the like with the post, um. But then I looked at their profile and they had like dressed like Gwen Stefani and Paris Hilton and people like this, and I was like what? Like sure, okay, um. And they said, oh, yeah, no, we, we really want, um, the pink trench coat, um, and the sizing works well. 
 
11:24
So I've gone ahead and purchased that on Shopify and, um, I was like okay. And then like I need it ASAP, though can you take it down to FedEx and use here's my like login, whatever, no worries, um, and I just need it ASAP. And I was like okay, uh, all right. And so I took it down and shipped it off and everything matched up the name and everything matched up and I was like okay. And then, like it arrived and they'd said they'd got it. And then I was like who's this gonna end up on? But it was, um, Bebe Rexha. She sings that I'm blue, yeah, um, and it was part of her tour, um, and I know she wore it in her shows for being like going across the US. I was like what the? 
 
12:05 - Alexis (Host)
That's amazing. 
 
12:07 - Evie (Guest)
Yeah, I was just like what? Um, it was just so cool to see something that I had made with my hands on stage with somebody like that um, and I didn't have to do any of the performing sort of side of it, like, giving that thing away, that here, like, and if, like, that's the point of the clothes that I want to make is that it's meant to enhance how you feel about yourself, how you perform on stage, whether it's part of a performance or not. 
 
12:34
Um, like, recently I had, um a drag queen wear that as part of their performance too which was awesome, um, and so, just like that level of confidence that it seems that drag requires too, like you need um more um I don't know like the performance, wear and stuff has to be that elevated sort of thing. So I'd love to make more kind of pieces that are in that kind of realm. It seems like wearable art and I'm inspired by all of that kind of stuff, like these couture designers that do things for um drag runways and part of the or the drag shows. It's really cool. But, um, yeah, that kind of wearable art thing, um has been this kind of thing that I guess I feel more proud of. 
 
13:18 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, yeah, amazing, so so cool. Yeah, now, on the flip side of something that you're proud of, has there been a challenge to your creativity, and what do you think that major lesson was or is? 
 
13:40 - Evie (Guest)
I think the biggest one is trying to balance real life. Whether it's like you know, your just your life. You have to afford and live like a real adult and pay your bills and all that kind of stuff. That, and for a lot of my friends I noticed that can really stifle your creativity, just like
 
14:02 - Alexis (Host)
For those listening off off. Uh, mic, we, yeah, we talked about the housing crisis. Yeah, good times good times. 
 
14:08 - Evie (Guest)
But I think I had like seven grand put on my HECS just out of interest, like just interest, this this year, like uh, it's just wild, like how like people used to be paid for, paid to go to uni or the uni was free and stuff like um, it's just wild, like so trying to, yeah, just keep your head above water and and because I am, I think someone that's going to be doing gig life, like gig economy, like teaching, singing lessons is like a gig if, um, which is dependent on that student's health, like if kids are sick or whatever, you have to make up the lesson later and if you don't get to, or you, you have to make it work, yeah, um, so that kind of stress to make things work and make things happen is probably a bit stifling. 
 
15:01
Like I said, I haven't released anything like this year. There's a lot of like um half finished things or, like you know, you get into the zone of writing, maybe, and then you have a bank of songs that you need to then go record and, um, I think just life happens and then you have to try and prioritize it and I probably this year, differently, I haven't been good at prioritizing that side of things, I think. I think I'm in a bit of a writing chunk, but not a production chunk. 
 
15:33 - Alexis (Host)
I mean it's all seasons right. I know for me. Yeah, definitely go through a season where it's like yeah, I don't feel like gigging, I just want to write and just be in that space and and then yeah, the recording side of things and just want to be with others and creating, or, yeah, I don't know, I feel like it's seasons you're just in a different season. 
 
15:53 - Evie (Guest)
Yeah, and I haven't really, because when I finished uni and I took off to Bali and I'd saved a bunch of money and I was like I just need to get out of Melbourne and I had that time. I was there for like a year and a bit and it was a chunk of creative time like that, because there wasn't, or there was still, like you know, bills and whatever money things to try and sort out, but I worked my butt off to save that chunk, so that I was. 
 
16:19
I was right for a while, um, and then I could write and practice and all that stuff. So trying to collect or save some time for yourself seems like really hard to do because you're sacrificing something, whether it's like time with family or having some kind of like stability, stable job, whatever that is. I don't know if I could actually do that.  I tried it and I failed and I'm sorry because my friend got me that job. 
 
16:45 - Alexis (Host)
I, you didn’t fail. It just wasn't. It wasn't the right thing for you, it wasn't on your path. 
 
16:50 - Evie (Guest)
Yeah and I just kind of expected that after the 40-hour week I would have a ton of energy to go use on creative stuff. I was depleted and so unhappy Like. I remember doing a Zoom call with someone and they were like are you okay. 
 
17:09
Like I just just evaporated out of myself. I thought I looked so unhappy so I can't, can't do that. But I guess, yeah, just managing the, the gig life, can take it out of you a bit. So I think, yeah, trying to take enough of a chunk of time out of a week, or just I don't know whether to spread that out over time, or like buy yourself time, have like a month off where you just do go somewhere and write and produce, or whatever. I don't know what the right thing is to do, necessarily, but I'm sure that's something that I haven't been so great at, especially this year. Or I've just said yes to too many things, like the Latvian choir. 
 
17:53 - Alexis (Host)
But it's so nice being able to say yes to things, but it's like we've got to have the art of saying no, right. Yeah, is there an object or a thing that you can't live without when you're creating? And I suppose that would probably be different questions for the different streams of creation. 
 
18:09 - Evie (Guest)
Yeah, you do like I have to have a sewing machine to get anywhere um, but um, I guess not so much an object like I like having precious things in here, like this plant was from a cutting from um my auntie like friend, family friend, auntie auntie's house and that was from a cutting that my mum had given her. 
 
18:37
So like yeah, and like she passed away when I was 18. So it's literally it feels very special. I'm surprised it's growing because I can keep these, like Monstera, but other ones, like I, kill quite easily, so I think it's hanging on. But it feels really special to have like things like that in here and like it's mum sewing machines and it's mum some of like some of the jackets that have been sold have like mum's cotton in them from when she had because. 
 
19:06
I've just inherited all this kind of stuff, so all of that's felt pretty special. But I think, coming from this like eastern European family, it was sort of like, um, whatever skills you can build up within yourself is something that no one can really take away from you. When they really had to, like, hide who they were and change their names and run away to Germany or go into a different camp and have these different languages so that you could look after yourself and not speak the wrong one in the wrong place and stuff like that, because you'd just be sent off to Siberia or whatever. Like like all of you don't really hear of many Latvians because they were either um, you know, the land was taken over by either Russians or Germans at any point in time up until like 1991. 
 
19:54
So like you really had to, um, yeah, there was not a lot of independence there, so my family was probably quite um kind of scarred in that way. Like you had to build your own skills and stay quiet about who you were and and what you were doing, but no one could take those skills away from you because they were yours, sort of so, um, yeah, I guess that's sort of like yeah, your hands and, yeah, your voice and your, your things, are the things I have to try and keep. Keep with me and, like not you know, sew my hands over, so if I bust,
 
20:28 - Alexis (Host)
I mean they'd be pretty, they’d have lots of glitter and stuff yeah, yeah so not very good for the rest of any activities. 
 
20:46 - Evie (Guest)
Yeah, so um yeah, I guess, not necessarily anything I can't live without, 
 
20:50 - Alexis (Host)
But I think I think, your object being that plant, I think that's a very beautiful thing. 
20:53 - Evie (Guest)
Yeah, it's been doing pretty well, surprisingly, even like cutting, making more cuttings and shoving them in. They've taken, so it's doing all right. 
 
21:00 - Alexis (Host)
It's very lush yeah it's very lush. If you could give one piece of advice or nugget of advice to another creative, what would it be? 
 
21:15 - Evie (Guest)
I'll still be learning this, but taking the time to to be a bit shit, like I'm going to release stuff that people are going to think is shit, and it probably is shit, and that's fine, because you just want to not get stuck on the perfectionism of something because a painter or whatever doesn't sit there and go, oh, this one has to be perfect. You churn them out and like just get better at making things. Like my first jacket is not for sale because it was so average. But then you improve on everything that you're doing and just not being afraid to make stuff to, to have gone through that process to make it, because it's all worthwhile and and even if you don't do it quite right, like I, when I go to these piano lessons and I haven't done enough work and I'm like pretty mortified at my progress and I'm like a five-year-old with this, trying to read this sheet music but I know that I'm getting better at it because I'm going there and sight reading everything because I haven't done homework. 
 
22:10
So I'm like, oh, my skills are legit. They're small, but they're legit because I'm reading right now. 
 
22:16 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, you're flexing that muscle. 
 
22:17 - Evie (Guest)
Because I didn’t do the homework. Yeah, yeah, so like just letting yourself sort of sit in this uncomfortable space, like it will get better, and maybe it takes some people longer than others and that's still okay. Like it won't. You're never at square one more than once. Like, yeah, you know, um, and I think I sit in that place with like all the singing students that I've got that they feel so frustrated and and whatever else, but it doesn't last forever. So, just to try and let yourself have that time because you will get better at it, yeah, we all probably feel like what we're making is a bit rubbish sometimes? 
 
22:54 - Alexis (Host)
For sure, but we have to. What does Ed Sheeran says you've got to run the tap. You've got to run the tap bad songs to get to the good ones yeah. 
 
23:07 - Evie (Guest)
And you can write 100 and release seven. Yeah, that's fine, yeah, that's totally fine. And then, like because I've got this quote up on my wall, I watch this TED Talk. Her name's Sue Austin, she's in a wheelchair and she goes underwater and it's this like jet sort of thing and she just said that she would, um, be so outrageous in her wheelchair and what she would do with it and make art out of it because no one could go. Oh my god, you're in a wheelchair. Like, give her any kind of. She felt that it was. It was a restrictive kind of view on being in a wheelchair and she's like fuck, no, I'm like she's in scuba gear and like got this jet thing behind her and she said um, I'll read. 
 
23:47
“An arts practice can remake one's identity by transforming preconception” and this is by like doing re-envisioning the familiar, so like you've got some kind of familiar object but you're doing something completely out of the box with it that people don't have any kind of thing to relate it back to. 
 
24:07 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, they don't have anything a benchmark for it. 
 
24:09 - Evie (Guest)
Yeah, so that's what I really liked with this like whole wearable art thing. If you're doing something so kind of strange or a bit out of the box, then you're kind of like making this new-ish thing, um, and I mean, so far it's only tinsel jackets, but it's just getting a bit more, um, permission for yourself to do something a bit more outrageous than you normally would. Yeah, which is what also feels like an important thing to do. 
 
24:38 - Alexis (Host)
100% is an important thing to do, so good yeah so good, yeah, if someone wanted to do what you do, any of the things that you do, all of the things that you do. Uh, have you got any resources that you would recommend for someone to develop their creative process? 
 
25:01 - Evie (Guest)
Um, resources, I, I, I really struggled to sit and watch things online but like I would probably say to be looking at things like I don't know, even like YouTube and stuff for things to do with Ableton or because I went down like expensive routes and like doing like actual study and taking chunks of time out to do that which, um, feels like a bit of a luxury. 
 
25:34
It is a stressor, but it feels like a bit of a luxury thing that maybe people can't go and do that, but just like anywhere you can collect it from. I remember just having to watch a video because I couldn't ask mum how to rethread this sewing machine when I got it out, like I just needed to find just one little piece. And then now I do that completely without thinking. But even to find that in a video somewhere ages ago, even if it's three minutes and it took me like re-watching it a few times and stuff, just that one day it all does build and compound and stuff too, so there might be like a little free course or like for sewing, there's an amazing woman in Norwood who like it's it was very, um, it wasn't very expensive lessons and she's like such a humongous wealth of knowledge, like and so lovely um helped me to learn how to attach a zip properly, or like do darts properly, and I was like oh god. 
 
26:31
I've been, yeah, like I might not do some things properly because I'm not formally trained in certain things, but it kind of doesn't matter. So any bits of wisdom you get from people I feel like is really valuable, even if it feels like a bit of a mishmash by the time you put it together. 
 
26:50 - Alexis (Host)
But we're all just, we're compiling all of it for our own good yeah
 
26:58 - Evie (Guest)
And I don't think you have to be like, lots of people are self-taught in lots of different ways anyway, yes, so, um, I think that's totally valid and and a great way to do things anyway now. Like all of the sewing stuff is is self-taught. I'm surprised that I listened to my mum. So I think I think just anywhere you can find it like there's so much online and and so many people you could ask, even if you find someone that you love, like even on any social media and stuff, and just watching what they do yeah. Yeah, I don't know, and like anything that I do is still all like muscles and stuff. Like one of the songs I did God, I can't even think of it now. But one of the songs I released, the vocals are on a phone and it's not the greatest piece of music ever, but all the vocals were recorded on a phone, all the film clip was done with a projector and it was all like from Pexels, like free to download video and stuff. 
 
27:55
So it was like meant to be a thing that literally anyone could do or make. I think I used um AI to master it and stuff like just I just chucked it as up as like an experiment sort of thing, yeah. So, um, yeah, I think anything that I'm doing, anyone could definitely do so I think,
 
28:15 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, I love it. One last question if you could pick anyone to come on this podcast and answer these questions, who would it be and why? 
 
28:26 - Evie (Guest)
I'm gonna say Sophie Head, because I love her um. 
 
28:32 - Alexis (Host)
Yes, I love her too. She's amazing. 
 
28:34 - Evie (Guest)
Yeah, she's just got a really passionate vibe and I think she's got a lot to share. I feel like she would be very modest but she'll kind of like turn her hand to anything and like totally pull it off. Like Tipsy Twain won, like fringe awards and sold out shows. It was like something they come up with on a New Years Eve together. So yeah, I would say Sophie 
 
29:04 - Alexis (Host)
Beautiful. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. 
 
29:08 - Evie (Guest)
My pleasure
 
29:10 - Alexis (Host)
So lovely chatting with you.
 

11 | Listening To Your Creative Spark with Natalia Fidyka

In this episode, Alexis welcomes the talented Natalia, an artist and psychologist whose passion for creativity knows no bounds.
 
Following her artistic journey, from the enchanting vistas of the Pilbara that sparked her solo exhibition, to navigating the delicate balance of her roles as both therapist and artist, Natalia shares invaluable insights and experiences as a creative herself. She places great emphasis on the value of community, highlighting the importance of actively engaging with fellow creatives, both in person and through digital channels, as each individual has something different to contribute. 
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Natalia on instagram @nataliafidyka
 
This episode was recorded on 24 November 2023 on the lands of the Wajuk Peoples.We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
 
Creative references from Natalia:
Books; Rick Rubin - The Creative Act, Holly Ringland - The House That Joy Built
Online Courses: Flora Bowley https://florabowley.com/online-learning/
Course: The Life Cycle of a Creative Spark http://www.nataliafidyka.com/creative-spark.html
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
 
—---------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door.
 
00:49
Natalia, thank you so much for coming through the Creative Door or being on the podcast Through The Creative Door. I'm so excited to have you. 
 
00:58 - Natalia (Guest)
Thanks for having me. 
 
01:00 - Alexis (Host) 
Oh, my goodness, I heard your name actually through a previous guest on Through The Creative Door, Millie Taylor, who had raving reviews about you, not only about you as an artist and the phenomenal body of work that you do, but also she talked about how she went to one of your workshops and just got so much value add from that, and she was quoting you on the podcast, which was very lovely. So for those that are listening, I will be sharing those details for that workshop in the show notes, so watch this space, but also not only. I mean, we're multifaceted humans. You are a phenomenal artist I've still got you on socials, but you're also a psychologist as well, which is bloody amazing, yeah yeah, and a lot, I'm sure a lot. 
 
02:00 - Natalia (Guest)
Yeah, it's amazing. I love it, love them both. 
 
02:02 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah. So I guess this question that I'm going to ask first more so as an artist, but maybe it is about how you intertwine with your other job as well. But what does the creative space mean to you? 
 
02:20 - Natalia (Guest)
Good question. You know, I don't think anybody has ever asked me that before. 
 
02:25 - Alexis (Host)
I find that very hard to believe. Only because I would have thought that that would be because you talk about creative spark so much.  
 
02:36 - Natalia (Guest)
Yeah, well, okay, so let's see if I can try and answer it. So, creative space is, I think, a a place, but it's also a mindset, which I think you suggested that, um, in your earlier questions and I really liked the idea of the mindset is actually probably the most important thing for creating the creative space and I would say the mindset for that is entering into the space, whether it's the kitchen bench like you saw the chaos on my kitchen bench because it's been so hot in Perth I can't go into my studio. 
 
03:18 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, just for those listening off mic. We made a cup of tea in the kitchen and we needed to just move some of the paints off the kitchen bench just so I can find a little spot for my coffee. It's okay, makeshift, makeshift while there's a yeah, it's a heat wave in Perth at the moment.
 
03:48 - Natalia (Guest)
Actually you've reminded me that is something I do talk about, about having micro studios. Oh my god, I'm gonna be rambling. So let me go back to what I started, and that is the attitude that we turn up to any creative space is is really important, and for me that is turning up without a intention. As soon as I sort of go in like I'm going to create this piece of work, it ends up being a shit show. So turning up and just starting with, like letting myself get in gently and I do that by just doing whatever I feel like, even if it's just doing lines with a piece of charcoal or just colour swatching, like whatever it takes to get me in, and then the creative flow kind of takes off. And then I'm running and that's been very helpful for me and having micro studios sprinkled around my house. 
 
04:38
So I've got a big studio in the garage and that's where I have my little workshops, that's where I do all my big pieces of work. But sometimes it's too hot or there's people banging and building houses or you know whatever it is that's going on, or it's just simply too far, like I know that sounds, I mean, you know, terrible, but that going out my back door and opening the roller sometimes feels like it's too much, yeah. So I've got little micro studios sprinkled around the house and that's just like a few journals, some paints and pencils and it's there so that nothing gets in the way there. The less excuses and reasons for me to paint, the better, and proximity and immediacy is one of those things that's really important to me. 
 
05:36 - Alexis (Host)
A friend of mine used to say scattering musical instruments around the house was the best way, because you could just, instead of having to unpack a guitar from a case, you could just pick it up and play a couple of little bars, put it back down. Exactly, yeah, I think that's probably the same right?
 
05:54 - Natalia (Guest)
Exactly it. I used to live with a beautiful creative Sharoni and when she moved in I was like, so can we turn the kitchen, like dining table, into an art space? She was like, yeah, and so again, like you know we had, she had her half of the table and I had my half of the table and it was just there. And we'd wake up in the morning and often find one or the other just kind of doodling. 
 
06:18 - Alexis (Host)
You've been an artist for such a long time and will continue to be, yeah, so this is probably a difficult question to answer, but is there a piece of work or a body of work that you are proud of creating? 
 
06:36 - Natalia (Guest)
Yeah. 
 
06:37 - Alexis (Host)
And how did it come about? 
 
06:53 - Natalia (Guest)
Over covid, I ended up traveling up north a lot up to the Pilbara and I went up with a friend once and then I think I went up by myself and then I went up another time with Banji
 
07:05 - Alexis (Host) 
For those listening, Banji's this beautiful dog that's in this beautiful space with us. 
 
07:11 - Natalia (Guest)
Yes, little therapy dog and I had the privilege of spending some time with an Indigenous man up there and he took me to some really wild and special places and he gave me permission to collect some ochre and some rocks and when I came back I started making paint out of it. So I just crush it up and mix it with a bit of like an acrylic medium. 
 
07:47 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah. 
 
07:48 - Natalia (Guest)
And I ended up just making an exhibition Like I, just my first solo exhibition. I just locked and loaded it, didn't think about it too much, and then I just worked with all that inspiration and some of the pieces were really beautiful. I mean, all of them were cool, but the ones that were the most popular had the ochre in it, so, whether you could even see it, there's just some energy in the work that people could feel. And the exhibition was called Oasis because all through the Pilbara there's little oases. You know it's like red rock desert. You come down all these like stone roads and then suddenly it's like palm trees and ice cold water and it was just amazing. 
 
08:41 - Alexis (Host)
So spectacular places, incredible, I mean obviously in the world. But like W.A has some gems, we have gems. 
 
08:50 - Natalia (Guest)
Oh yeah, we have so many gems and I haven't even touched the surface yes, I mean, I just found a cool place in Riverton oh really, yeah. I took banjo for a walk this morning, for a swim, and it was the most stunning river and I've never been there. And I just found a beautiful gallery space in South Freo Early Work Gallery Amazing and they supported the whole process and it was just amazing. 
 
09:16 - Alexis (Host)
Congratulations, that sounds so beautiful. 
 
09:18 - Natalia (Guest)
It was stunning. Thank you. 
 
09:19 - Alexis (Host)
On the opposite side of something to be proud of, have you found anything that's challenged your creativity, and what do you think the major lesson, if there is one? 
 
09:38 - Natalia (Guest)
The things that I struggle the most with. It's pivoting between being a therapist and being a creative, and not that that is actually that different, but running the two, trying to run the two businesses. It's a lot of code switching and it feels like it would be easier if I could streamline everything into one. Sure, but I don't know if that will ever happen, because I love lots of things all the time, so my energy gets split over a lot of things and I'm coming to realise that organisation is helpful for that. 
 
10:25 - Natalia (Guest)
That's a new concept for me, I'm not known as a very organised person and you saw my kitchen benchtop. So yeah, I think that can be challenging sometimes and, like social media, you know it's such a love-hate thing. It's such a love-hate a love hate thing. Like I meet the most amazing people like you, and I've made some artist friends that I've never met in real life, it's incredible, um, but trying to work out the whole thing in post and and market and sell so you can keep moving, it's a lot
 
11:04 - Alexis (Host)
And it never feels like it ends.
 
11:07
Because it's always changing right. Yeah, like it's they're. They're always changing something, or you know the market gets saturated in this and so then people are bored of being sold to like that. So we go try new things, and so I think it's, I think it's mentally organizing myself is probably the hardest thing. 
 
11:30 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, I can empathize with that. I mean, it's small business at the end of the day and you have to wear all of those hats. It's really hard and you are your product. You know you're the face of the product whether that be either of the hats that you wear.
 
11:52 - Natalia (Guest)
Yeah totally. Yeah, it didn't even occur to me. But you're right, all the things like the graphic design and the content creation and the emails and. 
 
12:01 - Alexis (Host)
I'm going to wear my PA hat today. This afternoon I'm going to wear my manager hat and then get an accountant hat.
 
12:14 - Natalia (Guest)
Exactly, but you know what? Yeah, and that's a challenge. But it's also like how cool is it that we can do that? I was born in the 80s. If I wanted to have a website, I would have had to like get somebody to do that for me for thousands of dollars. Graphic design, like I couldn't have done any of that. And now I can do it all. 
 
12:31 - Alexis (Host)
That is a wonderful thing about technology is that it does. It's got smaller and more accessible and more cost effective, which means that you can do it all yourself in some way. But yeah, and then it's also that you can, which means that should I yes, I don't know. Sometimes I wonder if I should just outsource a lot of things. 
 
12:53 - Natalia (Guest)
Yes, which is something that I'm ready to do. Yeah, okay, and I have somebody fantastic I don't know if I can mention her name Krystal Hudson. She's doing my new Kajabi website. Oh 
 
13:09 - Alexis (Host)
Might get some more clientele. When you're creating, is there an object or something that you can't live without when you're creating?
 
13:37 - Natalia (Guest)
It's kind of a ritual that has an object. It's not as profound as you might. It's a cup for my coffee. And it's Amy McNee. She's like a creativity coach and she doesn't do merch anymore, but when she did and I saw this cup, I was like I have to have that cup and it's because it's a giant cup. It's not like this cup, it's like twice the size of this cup, because my morning coffee is huge. It's a bucket. And on it on it it says “we need your art”, like handwritten, like black, and it's like every morning, because I paint in the morning mainly, um, and it's just make the coffee, get the coffee cup, sit down, and it's there and it's constantly reminding me 
 
14:30 - Alexis (Host)
oh, I love that. It's cool, that's so great. I wonder if you had one piece of advice or a nugget advice. If you could give that to another creative, what would it be? 
 
14:52 - Natalia (Guest)
It would be to always listen to your, I call it the creative spark, but it could be the breadcrumbs, like what you're interested in, what your hunch is, because it's usually not usually it's. It's always the right way, because that's coming from inside you and it's like if you're interested in something or if you want to do like, spray pink over blue or whatever it is that you want, that impulse is coming from you and sometimes we judge it and we go, oh I, I couldn't possibly do that, that's weird or that's not enough, or what would people think if I do that thing, it's like that thing is your style, your soul print, it's your intuition. It's all you ever need to be really listening to in the creative process.  
 
15:43 - Alexis (Host)
Amazing. I love when I hear people's little nuggets of advice, because it always just fills my cup. Every time I'm like, yes, yes, Alexis, remember this. 
 
15:56 - Natalia (Guest)
It's simple, right, oh, but it's so complex because, as humans, we have so many interruptions to following our intuition, like through the entire creative process, you know. It's like where do I start? What am I interested in? Does it look good enough? It's like you've got so many like inbuilt judgments and um limiting beliefs and all this sort of stuff that gets in the way of doing something as simple as following my joy. 
 
16:28 - Alexis (Host)
 
and it's true, we do, there's all these external factors coming in. We always need to be able to come back to self, to being like what is authentic and true.
 
16:41 - Natalia (Guest)
That's inside, yeah, it's in my body. Yeah, it's not even in my head. That's all like conditioning belief systems. So what feels good in in the heart? You know like sometimes when I'm painting and it's like right on literally, I feel like euphoric, it's like a drug when you're in flow with the work and what you want to create. 
 
17:11 - Alexis (Host) 
Such a beautiful space, such a beautiful energy. So good. 
 
17:13 - Natalia (Guest)
It’s joy, yeah, it's, and it's um, like you can lose sense of yourself, and I think that's one of the components of being in the flow is that you're no longer self-aware, but you're kind of like just floating in bliss
17:28 - Alexis (Host)
eah, there for the ride. If anyone wanted to take a leaf out of your book and do what you do, is there any resources or books or references or things that you would suggest? 
 
17:45 - Natalia (Guest)
Yes, I have two. One is the artist who brought me back. Oh, I have so many actually. Okay, I got three. Flora Bowley she's an Oregon painter. She's been painting, doing I think she was like the first artist who did an online course oh, wow, yeah, she's beautiful and she does like intuitive art classes. So she got me back in. I think in my late 20s, after studying, I sort of kind of fell away, kind of fell away, so she got me back in. And then Rick Rubin has written an incredible book called the creative act. It's all about the creative process. And lastly but um, it's Holly Ringland has written a book called That House That Joy Built. She's incredible. You're going to fall in love with her. Oh, yes, and that is about from what I've read a little bit is it's about why we need to move through fear to create and that joy is a really good reason to create. 
 
19:07 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, I love that. 
 
19:08 - Natalia (Guest)
Yeah, so they're my three. 
 
19:12 - Alexis (Host)
What wonderful suggestions. Put them all in the show notes for everyone. Last question, if you could hear anyone else come on to the podcast and answer these questions, who would it be? 
 
19:26 - Natalia (Guest)
The person I have in mind is actually, I think, in South Australia, and where is she? Victoria, maybe she's in New South Wales? Her name's Holly Eva and she is quite a prolific artist and she does beautiful, colourful abstracts of like flowers and women. But the reason why I'd love to hear about her she has nailed like creative flow. She has made a business out of her art. Makes it look easy I'm sure it's not and she is so supportive of her creative peers like her and I've never met, but she reached out to me and just said some beautiful things about some of my work, really encouraged me through a particular phase, answered some questions that I had. She's just a really generous, creative, oh beautiful. And just wanted to shout out to Holly because she's been wonderful. 
 
20:34 - Alexis (Host)
How good is community? 
 
20:37 - Natalia (Guest)
I love it when people it's a funny thing, they're like gatekeeping of like information and I'm sure you know there's a time and a place for it. But I really value, like, if you, if you give them a slide in my dms and you want to ask me something, I'll answer it yeah and because I've had so many people do that for me and it's just been so helpful and you feel so much more supported and less alone. So yeah, I like that kind of world. 
 
21:08 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, and I think we do live in, myself, as a creative, I feel like I live in a space like that where you just have to ask yeah. Natalia, thank you so much for coming on Through The Creative Door. It's been so lovely chatting with you. 
 
21:25 - Natalia (Guest)
It was my pleasure, Alexis, beautiful chat. 

10 | The Journey Is The Best Part with Mark Turner

Get set for a shot of inspiration as multi-instrumentalist and vibe creator Mark Turner links up with Alexis on this juicy episode. They dive headfirst into a lively chat, with Mark sharing personal insights and anecdotes that offer a sneak peek into the dynamic world of his creative process. From his early days in session work to his original projects, Mark dishes on the importance of trying everything you can and being okay with the outcome, because there is bound to be another project on the horizon. 
 
Whether you're a musician, artist, or just someone who loves creating good vibes in your own way, this episode is bound to ignite your creative spark and reassure you that you're not alone on the wild journey of creativity.
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Mark on instagram @markturnermusic 
 
This episode was recorded on 23 November 2023 on the lands of the Wajuk Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
 
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
 
—---------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door.
 
Hello Mark Turner
 
00:50 - Mark (Guest)
Hello Alexis Naylor
 
00:51 - Alexis (Host)
How are you doing? 
 
00:54 - Mark (Guest)
I'm lovely, it's a busy time, but here we are. 
 
00:58 - Alexis (Host)
Well, thank you for coming and chatting to me through the Creative Door. 
 
01:03 - Mark (Guest)
Oh, the door is wide open. 
 
01:04 - Alexis (Host)
The door is wide open. Indeed, for those who don't know you, you are a very talented bear, does lots of things, multi-instrumentalist and doing recording things and singing things and tootie-tootie on the saxophones. 
 
01:21 - Mark (Guest)
Jack of all trades. Well that's the aim, jack, of all trades. Yes, well, that's the aim. That's the aim. I do the things that I enjoy, you do and try to do. It helps my ADHD brain. It's self-diagnosed. 
 
01:37 - Alexis (Host)
So, considering that you do so many different creative outlets, it's probably a hard question to ask. But what does the creative space mean to you? 
 
01:50 - Mark (Guest)
Well, great question, and it's ever evolving, Alexis.. Creative space I mean it's like a space can be a hotel room or a toilet or a car or, in some cases, your van when I've been in it. Long drives, when you're just by yourself and you're left with complete creative freedom. But also those spaces change, like one of the biggest things I always wanted was a creative space and then I got it and I used it a lot and then, you know, circumstances change and then the neighbour next door was in my creative space workshop. The neighbour next door started living there so I couldn't be creative, like when I was creative. I felt very exposed. So for me, creative spaces are vulnerable spaces where I feel safe to explore and try ideas and see where the world takes me. 
 
02:40 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, so that's obviously changed and evolved over time. 
 
02:45 - Mark (Guest)
Yeah, it's fully evolved and it's just a, it's just a lovely, it’s a lovely thing to be able to have one and also to be able to especially as a travelling musician and a travelling a lot I love travel so to be able to create a creative space or be somewhere and find that rhythm is cool, I really enjoy that. I feel very fortunate to have that ability to you know set up and be creative where I need to be. 
 
03:14 - Alexis (Host)
It's interesting because I think, well, maybe I'm projecting, but a lot of us would strive to have a studio or a creative space in that sense yeah, and then, when you get it, perhaps, like you said, definitely use it quite a lot, but then, like you, take it for granted almost.
 
03:34 - Mark (Guest)
Absolutely, I mean it's funny because I've had so that the space where questioning is it kind of fell about by accident. I was looking for somewhere to hold my, and harness my creativity, and it's the kind of thing. When I found it I was like this is I've found the gold mine. 
 
03:50
And it is, it is it is the gold mine and it was. It was when those circumstances changed, maybe four years into having it where there was, you know, the neighbour situation. It changed the silver lining for me, but then I've kept it because it's still. I know that the gold is there. So I feel extremely lucky to have that space and a space that I can call mine to create in. I think if anyone can find a way to make a space that is theirs, it's one of the most joyous things. But I had an experience recently and I believe they may be on your podcast. You might have to edit this out, but, Daine, has Daine been on your podcast? 
 
04:32
No, Cut cut paste. 
 
04:35 - Alexis (Host)
Are you telling me that I should have him on the podcast? 
 
04:39 - Mark (Guest)
Oh, he's a brilliant brain yeah, um, so Daine was in there recording recently and he came and he dropped the key back to me and he's like mate, that place is magic and it reinvigorated me, because a space is only as magical as it feels for you. So to see him experience that same magic that I felt, without any of the emotions being shifted because of past experience, it was just like that, is awesome and I love that he felt that and it reminded me of the magic that a place or a venue or a situation can feel. But it's okay to let things change and for that to shift. 
 
05:15 - Alexis (Host)
You're like, oh, I want to go back in there, I want to experience the thing. 
 
05:18 - Mark (Guest)
Absolutely. It was that kind of wow, this is actually a vibe. So I was like, wow.
 
05:24 - Alexis (Host)
I'm curious. I mean, you have been involved in so many ensembles. You have released lots of different music with different people. You've done lots of different projects. You've also been a videographer. Like you have been involved in so many things creative. 
 
05:48 - Mark (Guest)
Jack hammer of all jacks. 
 
05:49 - Alexis (Host)
Yes, yes, but I guess it's a hard question to ask Is there something that you're most proud of or is there a body of work? I know that seems like a real-loaded question, right? 
 
06:03 - Mark (Guest)
Is there something that I'm proud of? I'm constantly proud of, I'm constantly proud of everything that I've created. So, like I'm, I see things and I'm like, oh, I'm proud of that. I look back and reminisce and I'm super proud of the (whether it be music) or all of it. 
 
06:18
Yeah, I mean, uh, the thing that came to my mind recently was a Christmas album I did with Steve Hensby, and so Christmas is around the corner. I was like, oh yeah, I made a Christmas album once and I listened to the song. I was like God, it was just such a beautiful time and memory. And then Sam Timmerman, who is our dear friend, reshared a story of when we all lived together and we did some amazing things in COVID and it's like, wow, I'm so proud of what we achieved there. Jessie Gordon and myself just released an album and I'm super proud of that and it's just little things that I'm like along the journey you've just got to kind of like, there's moments like pat yourself on the back and go that was great, you did good, keep going, it's okay. 
 
07:00 - Alexis (Host)
And I don't know about you, but, and I don't know about you. But I find it's hard to do that sometimes. And it actually is a real conscious effort. Once you've finished a project, released it, put it out to the world. Well, this is how I feel anyway to actually take a minute and be like actually, yeah, I did a thing, yeah because you're so caught up, because you're caught on to the next thing, moving on to the next thing
 
07:25 - Mark (Guest)
And that is hard because you just, especially for my brain I'm here, there and everywhere, so to stop and take stock is a challenge, but yeah, I'm just stoked that I get to, I guess at the core of it is like how cool is it that we can create stuff in our lives and share them with others? 
 
07:47 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah. 
 
07:48 - Mark (Guest)
So that to me is I'm super. I guess at the core of it I'm proud to have a body of life that I get to share with others who also enjoy it. So you know, it's not just I guess it's hard to pinpoint any one thing, it's all of the bits. 
 
08:03 - Alexis (Host)
All of the bits in all of the things. Yeah, on the flip side of something proud, do you think that there's something that's challenged your creativity and if so, what was the major lesson? 
 
08:18 - Mark (Guest)
Something that challenged my creativity. The first thing that comes to my brain is remembering COVID as an entity and then coming back out of COVID, because you and I, Alexis, had a very different COVID to most people, where most people went quite inside and quiet and found their own space and did what they did we want. We turned our house into essentially a nightclub slash music venue, which I'm incredibly proud of. 
 
08:51
But it was the kind of thing where it became this creative, uh, mega space and all nothing was off limits. So that to me, was the first time. I was like whoa. I haven't felt freedom like this in years. So it was this really like no one was. I didn't have to be, and I guess in a lot of ways, I don't have to be accountable. I'm accountable for every decision I make, but in that moment I was in control of every decision that I was making for me and us musically. 
 
09:19
And then, when the world switched back on in Perth specifically, it was so intense with the amount of work we had, the amount of well, we just had to get back on with it, because that's what I was programmed to do and it was a really challenging mindset to go. But you had the best time of your life in this window of creativity and you've now, basically, you were in neutral, the engine was going, everything was cool and then in COVID, we switched the engine off and relaxed and now not only is the engine on, we're like on sixth gear. Full speed ahead. 
 
09:55
We're on the Kwinana Freeway, pelting down to somewhere who knows. 
 
10:01 - Alexis (Host)
Wait, surely there's a faster..
 
10:05 - Mark (Guest)
Yeah, maybe Brand Highway, who knows? Yeah, Kwinana Freeway is definitely not the right analogy, but you know what I mean Great Southern Road or something, caning it down the freeway and it's like whoa, that was hard because I was like, oh, I am burning myself at every candle. I basically got six candles, which I also do enjoy, but it’s alot.
 
10:28
So I was just like whoa, this is crazy, crazy, so I don't know that, that to me was challenging, and it's still a challenge to consider what that looks like 
 
10:40 - Alexis (Host)
what do you think the major lesson is there, though, like how do you come through from that? 
 
10:43
Well, I'm not learning from that. I'm not listening to my own heart, but I guess the lesson is is to allow space for creativity, and it's something that that I've tried to do with Jessie in terms of our writing and our time. We create time to be creative and just booking in me time, which is so hard to do, it's so hard to dedicate time for you, for yourself. So, as I sit here preaching about something that I don't do, I'm going to analyze that and think more about my life choices but ultimately, it's a balance right it's all just a balance.
 
11:23
I love everything that I get to do, so I love the work that I get to do. It's so varied and exciting, but there is also, the challenge is finding the balance to be me and produce my own me to the world that they can see. Um, but I guess you know, yeah, exactly what I said. There's me in everything that I'm currently doing, but there's also the other me that wants to maybe create and do more freedom-based things that we had in that period. 
 
11:56 - Alexis (Host)
You definitely get I don't want to say pigeonholed, but like it's easy when we're already in those lanes to then just keep going down those paths without re-imagining. It takes a lot of effort to reimagine something, I think. 
 
12:11 - Mark (Guest)
Yeah, absolutely, and it's also. I mean, we've got to earn money, at the end of the day, you've got to exist, and that, to me, is the core of it, like, okay, we've got to just do that, but then also there's, you know, we've got to make space for all these things. 
 
12:27 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, to let the creativity out. Let it out, let it out. 
 
12:30 - Mark (Guest)
Let it out, be free. 
 
12:36 - Alexis (Host)
Is there any object or possession that you can't live without when you're creating. Like something sentimental or something like super..
 
12:49 - Mark (Guest)
Oh yeah, they're all tools. Yeah, I mean my saxophone's pretty sentimental, but even if someone told me they melted it down into a cupcake or something, or like a teacup, I'd be like, oh that's really weird, why would you do that? And then I'd just go and find another saxophone. 
 
13:04 - Alexis (Host)
That was my saxophone, but okay, yeah, why'd you do that? 
 
13:07 - Mark (Guest)
I love my acoustic and electric guitar, but you know they're wood and I'm very attached to them and they're mine, but at the end of the day it's a tool that helps me create and be. I reckon I'd be lost without my friendships. I think that is the things that you can't, that would be, they're probably the most important things. 
 
13:31 - Alexis (Host)
Okay. 
 
13:31 - Mark (Guest)
The things that if I lost those I'd be pretty sad. But for me, everything I mean you know data. Data is make sure you back up your content in three places, or those that doesn't exist, that you know, but then if you've got it three places, it does exist, so it's fine. But data you know, like memories, content, that those are the things that once you've created something. 
 
13:58 - Alexis (Host)
Making sure you've got it everywhere. 
 
13:59 - Mark (Guest)
Make sure you don't lose it. But yeah, there's nothing that springs to like, if the house was burning right now and I had to grab something, I mean I'd grab my laptop because it's got all the data on it. The laptop is just a tool. I'd probably grab my saxophone and my acoustic and my electric guitar, my memory box. Oh God, you, just you know. These are the order of. 
 
14:19 - Alexis (Host)
You need a container to take all the things before the fire gets in. 
 
14:27 - Mark (Guest)
Well, I bought fireproof boxes, so everything is hopefully nothing, touch wood. No pun intended about the wood, but yeah, I mean, I love my vinyl collection. That would be really hard to replace. There's a lot there and it's come from all over the world. But yeah, nothing that, I'm just trying to think what's in there? No, it's all just stuff. But I love stuff. 
 
14:44 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, but you can create you can start again. 
 
14:50 - Mark (Guest)
I mean, I had a moment the other day my friend who I'm teaching I gave a few lessons to on the saxophone and her name is Fernanda and she's moved down south and she's just starting her musical journey and I had a spare keyboard piano controller. I was like, you should take this. And she's like Mark, my world has exploded, everything has changed and it's like one thing that I didn't even use anymore, like I've got pianos everywhere. I just and for her it's like changed her life and it's just one little thing, it’s like, you know, they're just tools to help you get to unlock doors no, also lso, maybe this piano accordion. I got that when I was a kid. I'd be pretty sad if I lost that
 
15:36 - Alexis (Host)
As in, someone gifted it to you? 
 
15:37 - Mark (Guest)
Well, no I purchased it, it was one of my first instruments that I was learning 
 
15:43 - Alexis (Host)
oh, really, yeah, but I I how old were you? 
 
15:46 - Mark (Guest)
Oh, 10, 11. 
 
15:47 - Alexis (Host)
And that was what you chose at 10? 
 
15:48 - Mark (Guest)
Well, I chose the piano. I wanted to be a rock and roll piano-er, but I was pretty bad at it. I was pretty shit at piano. 
 
15:57
But the guy who taught me also learned piano accordion. So we yeah, that was I had to get, and my grandfather played piano accordion, so I started on his and then we found this one and then, you know, hit 12 and found the saxophone and then put the piano accordion back in its case. But I've ended up using it a few times recently in recordings. And you know, weird, I played in a Billy Joel tribute band. That was weird. Yeah, it is vibe, but you know, sentimentality is. Yeah, that's a great question. I like it. I take my friends with me. If the house is burning, you and me go to the pub. After we put the fire out. 
 
16:36 - Alexis (Host)
eah, yeah, yeah, we'll try it at least. If you could give one piece of advice, one nugget of gold to another creative. What would it be? 
 
16:54 - Mark (Guest)
Oh God, there's so many, Mum always said everything in moderation. 
 
16:57 - Mark (Guest)
But, that's not advice. No, the first thing that pops into my head is it's fine, it doesn't, there's, like whatever happens will happen and whatever the journey is, it's going to be fine. And I think I get so caught up worrying. I remember when I was 30, I was like I'm done, my time's over. I was 35. I'm like I'm done. I'm 35. Who cares? No one's going care and I'm like what happens, my hair goes gray and I lose them. Who cares? It doesn't matter. Like everyone's gonna be with you on the journey and no one goes to experience art to have a bad time. Everyone always goes out to have a good time. 
 
17:35
So, like, take the pressure off yourself and it will work out and it's so hard to, and I mean this is I'm internalizing my feedback, saying it doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter If you, if you do you know, we start a project, you don't finish it. It doesn't matter, it's okay,
 
17:52 - Alexis (Host)
It's also okay to pick it back up years later. 
 
17:58 - Mark (Guest)
Yeah. It's, but it's, it's. It's so internally hard to. There's just so much pressure in this world and my favourite thing is when I meet someone and I can just tell that their steam valve is off. There's no more steam, they're just relaxed. I'm like, oh, that looks like a nice time. Where's my steam valve? Maybe it's in my butthole. 
 
18:20 - Alexis (Host)
How do I turn it off? 
 
18:21 - Mark (Guest)
How do I release all this steam? How do I do it? But that's also part of what makes me me, so I wouldn't change that part of it. But I think it's just relaxing in the journey and it's like you can get caught up on so many parts of this life and it's like the journey is the part that is the best bit, the adventure, and it doesn't matter, just keep going, keep enjoying, keep doing whatever it is, and if it doesn't work, it's fine. 
 
18:48 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, try something else yeah. 
 
18:51 - Mark (Guest)
And, at the end of the day, whatever you've done and whatever you've created, it's amazing. Even if it's just your mum that likes it, that's fine. My mum does like it. 
 
19:01 - Alexis (Host)
I was just about to say how great are mums my mum always likes it too, 
 
19:26 - Mark (Guest)
Yeah so we're very, very lucky,
 
19:10 - Alexis (Host)
We are very lucky to do what we do. Would you have any advice on like resources or books or I don't know podcasts. Any references if someone wanted to, I don't know do what you do yeah. 
 
19:29 - Mark (Guest)
Well, if you do want to do what I do. 
 
19:33
Well, I mean, I'm an interesting case study in that I struggle with certain kinds of education. I've taught myself most of the things I know, but, you know, the biggest lesson that I've ever learned is by watching others and being around people who are very good at what we do. I'll never forget being in a room I don't know just started learning. I learned guitar when I was 14. And I think when I joined Adam Hall's band I was 21. And he asked me, invited me, to go on tour with a guy called Big Jay McNeely, who is no longer with us. But he was this killer honk and sax. He was like the definition of honk and sax, Like he was this old cat. He had his first hit in 1949, and Adam had brought him over to tour Australia. And we're sitting in the hotel room. I've just met Big Jay, he's sitting on the bed with his saxophone that's cut, painted fluoro orange. I'm like who is this dude? 
And he puts the sacks to his mouth and he honks a note louder than uh, if the heavens opened up and a saxophone appeared and started playing. It was louder than that and all of us in the room, except Adam, who'd heard him before like whoa, holy shit, balls like. This guy played so loud and it was so clear and so much passion in one note. I was like, oh my, we are serious. And so we started playing and I was playing guitar and he's and, and this Big J just knew what he wanted. He's like to the dominant, go to the dominant man. I was like what is a dominant? I wouldn't know a dominant if it slapped me in the face and I was like I don't know and Adam's like, just go to the C. 
He was helping me. I was like I don't know what this means. 
 
21:15 - Mark (Guest)
And so we're playing and Big J was just saying things and Adam was helping me. It was amazing, but it was one of those moments like you've got to learn fast there's, you've got to get your butt into gear, and it was one of those moments like I learned more in a 40 minute rehearsal than I did in the last six years of playing guitar. 
 
21:31
The six years had led to that moment for sure it had the, but it was, it was in that moment that my ass got handed to me and it was in that moment and I I there are vivid moments of my life. I remember recording my first ever. I was playing drums, recording and Kieran Candores, I was 17. I was playing with an ensemble. We were making a Christmas album. I don't know why I can't drink Christmas albums, but I was 17. 
 
21:55
I remember Kieran setting up the mics on my drum kit and he's an incredible engineer here in Perth and he put these mics in place and I was watching him and I was like, why did you do that? Why did you do that? And he was so kind, he told me all this information and I went out. It was the next five years. I bought every single mic that he put on that drum kit. I learned every single thing that he did and it changed my life. I remember going to watch Trevor Jeller. The first time I saw someone play guitar live, it was Howie Morgan and Trevor Jeller and these guys are so cool. I remember being underage, going to the Universal Bar and just being like, oh my God, that's what I want to do. 
 
22:31
You know it's those moments of like deep connection, watching, sucking every piece of knowledge from that experience and then learning how, like almost reverse engineering, just geeking out, yeah and now we're so lucky to have youtube and you can you can watch, you the people you admire on the internet now, like that, and it's like you can learn this stuff. But getting hands-on with the people that inspire you or that you learn from, is the people that inspire you or that you learn from is, I think, hands down. It happened to me the other week, James Newhouse recorded our Jesse and I's new duo album and we wanted to have him mix it, so I went down and sat with him and it was just like six hours of hang. But I think I learned more in six hours than I have in two years. 
 
23:18 - Mark (Guest)
Same with saxophone. I've been playing sax my whole life. I don't know what I'm doing. I had lessons as a kid. I had one lesson with Matt Stiles, who's one of the lead lecturers at UWA, I think, or WAAPA, and we sat and we had one hour lesson and he kind of was like, just play a scale. And he was like, okay, I see what you're doing, but have you tried doing this? And he said one thing that just changed everything and I was like I'm gonna have to go away for a year and understand what you just said. 
 
23:47
And it took me a year to work on it and it was like it's like little moments like that. All it takes is a little. You know, yeah, 180 degrees, flip it upside down and look at it in a different way, and you're like, holy shit, that changed my life. Um, and for those playing along at home, it was just, you know, open your like, drop your larynx, drop everything and allow the air to just go power through. I was like, whoa, that explains that's why I can't play saxophone. Now I can. Thanks Matt Stiles. You know little things like that. You're like, holy, shit. Blows your brain. You're like, oh, I never thought of that. 
 
24:24 - Alexis (Host)
Love it. One last question. if you could hear anyone answer these questions on the podcast. 
 
24:30 - Mark (Guest)
Who would it be? I, I mean my, the people that I really look up to. Like James Newhouse is a great example. He's such an interesting fellow and so inspiring. I'd love to hear his thoughts on these questions. Yeah, people that I look up to is, find all them and ask them all these questions, because then I can learn more. 
 
24:47 - Alexis (Host)
Big list. 
 
24:49 - Alexis (Host)
My goodness Mark Turner. 
 
24:51 - Mark (Guest)
Alexis. 
 
24:52 - Alexis (Host)
Thank you so much for being here and coming through the creative door. 
 
24:57 - Mark (Guest)
Oh, I enjoyed being in the door of my own house, the creative space of love, arigato gozaimasu. It's been an absolute joy. Bye. 
 
25:10 - Alexis (Host)
Bye. 

09 | You Can’t Be Lazy If You Want To Make Really Good Art with Terry Hart

Dive into the dynamic world of creativity with host Alexis Naylor as she sits down with Terry Hart, a Melbourne to Perth producer, mixer, composer and creative writer. 
 
Terry shares his fascinating journey navigating the intricate balance between technical prowess and emotional resonance in creative spaces. From his experience at Melbourne’s Sing Sing Studios to his own space, Terry has spent many years honing his craft as a producer and as a session player and explores the challenges and triumphs of being on both sides. 
 
From the pitfalls of over-reliance on technology to the power of experimentation and authenticity, Terry's wisdom offers a roadmap for unlocking one's creative potential. Talk about inspiring! 
 
Whether you're a seasoned artist or an aspiring creator, this episode of 'Through the Creative Door' promises to inspire and enlighten you, inviting you to embark on your own journey of artistic discovery.
 
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Terry on instagram @maestroman
 
This episode was recorded on 22 November 2023 on the lands of the Wajuk Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
 
Creative references from Terry:
Course: The Sound Academy - Simon Moro www.academyofaudio.edu.au 
 
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/ 
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
 
—---------------------------
 
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door.
Hello, how you going? 
 
00:52 - Terry (Guest)
I’m good. 
 
00:54 - Alexis (Host)
Nice to have you here
 
00:58 - Terry (Guest)
Thank for inviting me
 
01:00 - Alexis (Host)
Thanks for letting me come into your creative space. Yeah, that's all right. I am so chuffed that you said yes to chatting with me because, I mean, I was an admirer of yours from afar before I even met you, before we even got to record and do things together. And then that was many moons ago. And now you're suddenly from the east coast over on the west coast. 
 
01:16 - Terry (Guest)
I came here for you, 
 
01:20 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, stop it! Well, well, now we'll have to book all these things in and we'll have to do lots of projects together. Yes!
 
01:24 - Terry (Guest)
Can't wait
 
01:27 - Alexis (Host)
I'm so excited. But thank you so much for coming on through the creative door. I wanted to have a chat to you because one you are just a multi-talented human being and have a brilliant mind and I'm curious, obviously you've graced me with the ability to come into your studio that you have here, but also the assumption that this is the only creative space that you have is probably not correct. 
 
01:53 - Terry (Guest)
Well at the moment kind of is. I'm new to town so this is what I've got. 
 
02:00 - Alexis (Host)
You brought it with you. But what does a creative space mean to you? Do you think? 
 
02:10 - Terry (Guest)
It's a very hard thing to get right and I've worked in lots of different studios over the years and the gear, the bits and pieces it's all great, but they're all tools to do a job. One of the things that a lot of studios fail in is what you're talking about is a creative space, um. One I used to work out a lot in Melbourne was Sing Sing studios and that always felt like a home. Kai and Jude that ran. It felt like like this amazing aunt and uncle and they're always there to take care of you and there was always this really good vibe. 
 
02:38
The rest of it's kind of superfluous if you're not comfortable to to create to make things um, especially when you're recording, because that's a that's a high. Comfortable to to create to make things um, especially when you're recording, because that's a that's a high um stress environment. You know a lot of people have saved for years to have a recording studio for a week. So you have to perform and um I know you've been there you jump on stage. If you're stressed it doesn't work like you really need to be in the right headspace to perform. So having a space that does that and allows you to do that, allows you to get into like uh, you know, like a flow state and really, um, enjoy the creation process, is is it's it's owed a lot more credit than it probably gets credit for so true, though, because I have definitely been in spaces over the years where, yeah, it was. 
 
03:26 - Alexis (Host)
I mean, you just walk in and there's a particular energy and suddenly, yeah, everything that you do is like under a microscope. 
 
03:35 - Terry (Guest)
And that's probably not good. No, like that cold, that sterile thing. 
 
03:41 - Alexis (Host)
And you wonder why you can't perform in a particular. It's like oh, I had this yesterday. 
 
03:49 - Terry (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, I can't do it. Had it yesterday. You've probably played it a hundred times on stage and had it, but, like when it matters, where we at, where's it gone? 
 
03:55 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, no, that's very true. That's very true. I'm curious. I mean, you have worked on so many projects, but you've also done a lot yourself, personally. I wonder and this is such a loaded and difficult question to ask but is there one bit of work or a body of work that you're most proud of today? 
 
04:19 - Alexis (Host)
I can work backwards. I can say I love making music, but I hate making my own music because it's a very lonely process. I like getting to the end. I am so intrigued about this, do tell me more what?
 
04:29 - Terry (Guest)
I work with bands and I get them in there. I try to give them this experience and they they say they want something and I have to try to figure out exactly what that is and get them there and things will break and things won't go wrong. And I keep that to myself and I figure out how to do that to make sure that they get that really positive experience. So we're talking about like the vibe in the studio, that homely feel and you're always nice and comfortable. I don't get that when I do my own stuff. It's just I'm filled in all the issues and trying to be creative. So I find it really really, really difficult and as far as I know, I'm not alone with that a lot of people who try to do a similar thing. It's a very difficult thing to balance. 
 
05:14 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, that's so true. Do you think that, will you always be having that hat on when you're in the studio doing your own, or could you potentially
 
05:29 - Terry (Guest)
Yeah, I haven't yet. Usually, when I've been doing my own stuff, it's been um after hours and just sort of I've got a bit, I've got a moment, so let's, let's give it a go. 
 
05:39
I hadn't got. I haven't gone to the lengths of sort of investing in that side of things, because there's a saying in my industry you got to decide which side of the glass you're on, and I did make my decision 10, 15 years ago. And, and I love producing music and and living in studios and being up to the wee hours trying to create something. Doesn't mean that I don't want to occasionally just just sneak across to the other side of the glass and see what's going on. 
 
06:08 - Alexis (Host)
Well, that, I'm sure, was your first love. 
 
06:13 - Terry (Guest)
Yes, yeah, that's what. I started off as a session musician. So I was on the other side of the glass playing, you know, piano and guitars and backing vocals and then violins and things like that on records when whatever people needed. That's how I got my foot in the door. But then, yeah, learn to love the rest of it slowly. 
 
06:31 - Alexis (Host)
We've spoken about something that you're proud of, but I also think on the on the flip side of that, do you think that there's been anything that has challenged you in creating or helping create a product with others? 
 
06:46 - Terry (Guest)
Again, there's always technical issues, but it's mostly communication. I think you'd find that most artists don't 100% know what they want and a lot of people see that as like a bad thing. But it's not. It is a like they know what they don't like more to as opposed to what they do. So that makes it a very difficult journey. So communication is always the biggest challenge, to try to figure that out, because it'd be great if you sit in the studio and go, okay, we've got this song, let's do a folk version, let's do a thrash metal version, let's do a, you know, an industrial rock version. Try everything and see which one works. But that's not very practical when it comes down to budgets and things like that. So getting into their heads, with obscure questions, you know I've been mixing for people and I've asked them like, if you were listening to this song, do you think it's orange or blue, like anything like that. It sounds silly but it kind of. 
 
07:44
It makes them think in an abstract form and it gives you something abstract to work from and that stuff can really hel, so communication is really always the challenge in the job because you're trying to translate a vision from nothing, which is it's an endlessly complicated job if you're actually trying to do it by chance. 
 
08:08 - Alexis (Host)
Would you have any advice? Is there things that you, if you could say to someone coming in, like before you come in? Maybe think of this kind of descriptive words or reference tracks. 
 
08:24 - Terry (Guest)
I do often. Yeah, I'll send like a questionnaire, especially if I get, if I get a sense of the project um, certain jobs, I'll sit with the bands in the rehearsal studio and we'll really nut it out. We might be doing that for months by the time we go into the studio, and usually by then and I do say usually, sometimes sometimes not at all, but usually by then we're on the same page. You've got a pretty good idea of what's going on. But otherwise those questions can be really helpful. Also, no musician ever wants to be asked what genre is your music. No artist wants to be asked that. 
 
08:59 - Alexis (Host)
So funny. I hate that question. Why do we all still ask this? 
 
09:02 - Terry (Guest)
Because we don't want to think like we're making something in the box. Otherwise, why would you be an artist? If we wanted to work like in the box, we'd go be a merchant banker and just call it a day. 
 
09:13 - Alexis (Host)
So true, but why do we all still ask that question? 
 
09:17 - Terry (Guest)
That's the thing. It's not about trying to make something like that, it's just like a guide in light. It tells me a lot if you want to make like a uh, independent sounding pop thing like Sia. I know you don't want to be Sia, but if you told me that it would just give me this world of palettes to open up in as far as instruments and things, um, it's just. It's just helping us do the job. So my best piece of advice is when somebody asks you that question, it's not, it's not a blight, it's literally because we're trying to help you. 
 
09:49 - Alexis (Host)
You're like yeah, I'm helping my brothers and sisters out
 
09:55 - Terry (Guest)
And I'm no better, if somebody asks me what genre my music is, I'll tell them to get out. There's the door. 
 
10:00 - Alexis (Host)
I don't know if this is going to be the right question to ask. We'll see. I feel like you're going to have lots of answers for this one, but is there any object or thing that you can't live without when you're creating? 
 
10:24 - Terry (Guest)
Honestly probably my dog. Yeah, yeah. 
 
10:31 - Alexis (Host)
Well, I mean for those people on the, you know listening. I got a lovely welcome when I came today from your beautiful dog. 
 
10:39 - Terry (Guest)
You're probably still sodden from licks and things like that.
 
10:45 - Alexis (Host)
 Yeah, I got all of the kisses. No, I love that. Do you think, especially because you're in this space, in the studio, for long periods of time and working on things for so long, yeah, do you think that is like? I think, like a, not a prerequisite, but a very healthy
 
11:05 - Terry (Guest)
No, but something like that. It goes back to what we were talking about before with the studios that I've seen at work are not the sterile clean line things, they're the ones that have got that homely feel. Now I've taken my dog to an insane number of sessions and I've seen this little ball of fluff, sort of devour, the negativity in the room, and sometimes there's arguments, sometimes there's confrontations between band members or whomever, and the dog's really, really good at breaking that down and bringing, like it's, a positive vibe in the studio. If you're looking for that, there's not really a better advocate for that. But look, I do. I make music for myself, for others, I work as a novelist, a writer, a fair bit as well. She's the only common denominator and I love having her around like, yeah, whether it has any difference, I don't know. 
 
11:56 - Alexis (Host)
I love that. She's the support dog for everybody. Yeah, exactly. 
 
12:01 - Terry (Guest)
I've seen it work. I swear. 
 
12:02 - Alexis (Host)
What else do you do with your writing? 
 
12:06 - Terry (Guest)
I've been doing creative writing for a good like you know, getting close to 10 years now. I used to write for magazines and things mostly about audio gear and things like that reviews but always had a passion for that, so I've been nutting out of that. I released one novel but I've been working on a bunch and just seeing what I can get to wear at the moment. I just really enjoy the process of that. I released one novel but I'm just I've been working on a bunch and just seeing what I can get to wear at the moment. I just really enjoy the process of that and it's different for me. 
 
12:34
Um, there's a bit of pressure because of what I do. If I wanted to make music, I love making music, but when I make my own it's hard for me to get out of that. That's a whole new Avenue for me. Like I'll admit to you now I do like being creative. I might have a little bit of a soft spot for it, but that's like a nice outlet for me which isn't what I'd call my profession, at least not at the moment. 
 
13:05 - Alexis (Host)
But I think if we've got that little spark of creativity in us, it manifests in so many different ways.
 
13:11 - Terry (Guest)
Oh, I don't think it matters. Yeah, got that little spark of creativity in us. Yeah, like, yeah, yeah, if you, if you, you can, either um tap into that flow state or you can't, but where you take it doesn't matter. Yeah, um, the rest of it's uh, a matter of practicg getting good at whatever you're doing. It, um, yeah, but it's, it's a great, it's a great outlet and allows me to get that uh, to get into that state and uh and also be vulnerable. 
 
13:32
There was a time there was a long time there that I was making records for other people and I did very, very little for myself and it's very easy to get, um, maybe jaded or maybe just a little bit loose sight of what the creative process is. Didn't mean I wasn't good at the job, but what it did mean is it made it hard to sympathize with the artist. So if I have something like that, I can kind of be there, be vulnerable, know what it means to someone when they give you criticism. Um, you know constructive criticism, but still know that that's it still is going to hit you in a certain way because you really are bearing yourself and being very vulnerable and, um, I think doing that on on the side makes me a lot better at at uh, yeah, just listening to what an artist has to say and respecting it, because, um, it can be hard, um to to really be there 100% and sympathise with people you work with, but, yeah, it's helpful for that. 
 
14:34 - Alexis (Host)
But also for yourself, as in it's multifaceted how it gives back and feeds back into you as a creative. 
 
14:42 - Terry (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, I'm definitely only speaking in a sense of what I do here, but I love doing it. 
 
14:50 - Alexis (Host)
If you could give a nugget or a piece of advice to another creative, what would it be? 
 
14:57 - Terry (Guest)
Oh, that's a hard one, get a dog, I guess. 
 
15:01 - Alexis (Host)
Get a dog. I'll write that down, yeah. 
 
15:04 - Terry (Guest)
The first thing that comes to mind is technology is not your friend and it's made so many things convenient, but it's also really pushed people's heads a little bit out of what's important, and it really is. If you can sit there with an acoustic guitar and make another human being cry with a song you made, that's all that matters. So there's a tendency to want to get into the studio and mess with sounds, and when I say studio, I mean people have. 
 
15:33
it's remarkable what people can do on their laptops you know, but jumping into that too soon and forgetting about the rest of it, because those endless choices have meant that people actually make less choices. Generally, the choices are kind of almost made on their behalf with a lot of the software 
 
15:48 - Alexis (Host)
To try and keep into a particular aesthetic or sound. 
 
15:58 - Terry (Guest)
Yeah things like it can be as simple as tempo. They just oh well, I will start, I'm going to start writing this song and they put their click on and put a drum beat you know, an artificial drum beat down, but then that artificial drum beat won't have swing. So they lose the idea that that song, the way they were playing the acoustic guitar, did have a tiny amount of swing. They don't have a, you know, and so your drummer's not going to hear that and react to that. And suddenly you've written this different song. 
 
16:21
It's so easy to lose the tiny little details that make something special. Um, so cause I, because I see a lot of. I'd have a lot of students when I did a lot of sessions back in Melbourne and they'd say bring a piece of gear up it's just like a program plug-in, say for a compressor or something and they'll mess with the knobs and try to make this sound work, even though it's not really working. And they've got endless different ones that a click of a button, but then they stick on one and get stuck on it. 
 
16:56
Now, when I was working on huge analog studios, I'd listen to something that wasn't right. I'd walk all the way over to the other end of the thing, pull out the wires that had patched it in, plug in new wires and try a new thing, like that was just a habit you had. Yeah, now it's easier to do that today than it's ever been. It's a click of a button and people do it less. So it's kind of. Technology is very good at making people lazy, but you can't be lazy if you want to make really good art. 
 
17:23 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, my goodness. That's so true. 
 
17:26 - Terry (Guest)
And you've been in the studio a fair bit, I'm sure you've been in those situations. Have you ever sat there looking for a synth sound to fill in a thing and you're just going through preset after preset after preset just trying to find that sound? 
 
17:38 - Alexis (Host)
Yes. 
 
17:41 - Terry (Guest)
It kind of. At some point you're just like a scene through time. You don't even know what's going on, right, you get that kind of moment where you lose that, yeah, yeah you lose space time context yeah, yeah, and it's overwhelming. 
 
17:54 - Alexis (Host)
And I'll be honest, like I don't have trained ears like you, so like for me, sometimes they all. Then suddenly all just I don't even know where I am. They all sound the same they just start blurring. Yeah, they're all blurring, whereas I think your ears would be far more in tuned for longer to be able to hear the finite difference between but even a lot of times, it just doesn't matter yeah. 
 
18:22 - Terry (Guest)
The big thing: is you're not making music to make it to like, you're not writing a song to find the perfect canvas for a perfect synth sound. You're looking for a synth sound to express a certain emotional state. That's all music is. It's a cathartic experience. People listen to it to feel something. So if you start listening to those synths and saying which one sounds like, my partner just left me. If that's what your song is about, you know it sounds. But um, that's a big part of what, what, what happens in these places there's. You get a bunch of sounds together. There's a little bit of work to make a snare drum sound like a snare drum, an acoustic guitar sound like an acoustic guitar. Once that's done, you've just kind of hit the bass line of beginning the. Then you've got to start to make the acoustic guitar sound like it's been hurt by some trauma or it wants to dance or it's, you know, whatever, whatever. 
 
19:18 - Alexis (Host)
Whatever the emotion is that we're trying to portray. 
 
19:22 - Terry (Guest)
 I need a thesaurus, I'm bragging about being a creative writer and I can't even think of more than two emotions. Like how are we going here? 
 
19:29 - Alexis (Host)
We need to watch that movie. It has all the emotions. 
 
19:32 - Terry (Guest)
Yes, that would be a great idea. It wasn't the elementals. I know the one you're talking about. Pixar right, yeah, Pixar, Pixar for the win always.
 
19:38 - Alexis (Host)
That's so true. No, I, it's all about sometimes finding that balance of, like, stripping it every back, stripping it all back to, yeah, the fundamentals, for sure, um, and yeah, it's lovely to have toys, it's lovely to have, yes, like you said, an opportunity to create in that particular way, but it should be supporting the message or the, the thing that we're trying to. 
 
20:12 - Terry (Guest)
Yeah, yeah absolutely yeah, and that that's the only thing to keep in mind, that it is supporting that um and that's the question just to keep asking yourself. 
 
20:21
Paul Mccartney put it really well. He said um, he was talking, I think, specifically about backing vocals. Okay, but I think it works across the board for production. Um, he said that, um, if it's not adding, it's taking away. So you can put in endless vocal harmonies if you want, but you just listen to it and go. Is that adding? And if it's not, if you can barely hear it or whatever, just scrap it, it's probably taking away then. Yeah, it's a good mentality and a good thing to keep in mind in every decision you do. Because, yeah, we can get into the studio and decide that we're going to spend half a day on finding the perfect snare drum I've got 40 snare drums here. We're going to find the one that really suits this song but if in that time, the whole band just loses energy and can no longer be bothered even performing the song and are tired and are hungry, then snare drum sound didn't really matter at t that point you know you've got nothing 
 
21:22 - Alexis (Host)
It's not really going to uh, put the electric energy back into everyone yeah, yeah yes, we found the sound . Would you, is there any resources or, like I don't know, books or courses or something like if you, if someone was wanting to um, do what you do? Is there there anything that you know, good resources that you would suggest? 
 
21:56 - Terry (Guest)
There's kind of endless resources. I know a mate of mine, Simon Morrow, in Melbourne, he's doing an online course for music production and he and I talk a lot about music production. He's got a great ear for that, so I trust what he's saying in that. But, at the same point, youtube is filled with things you want to figure out how to patch a hole in the wall. It's got you covered. 
 
22:24
It's not much different with music production. There's a lot of bits and pieces on that, but it's the same as anything. Sure, it's not sponsored and, um, in the sense that you're kind of getting an honest review, not just a sponsor, um, you know someone talking about something to get kickbacks or whatever, but there's probably, whatever issue you're having, there's probably a, a youtube video dedicated to that. So it's a great place to start. But, more than anything, if you are getting into this, your ears are the only thing that matters, and your ears get worse over time in many ways, not better. When you don't really know what things are doing, you just listen to them for what they are, and that's a good time to really be in the studio and mess around and experiment. 
 
23:17
If you want to do it, you have to be a mad scientist type in the sense that you should sit there with an acoustic guitarist for a day and every mic you can get your hands on and every preamp and every different mic setup you can think of, because there's not a right one and often there's not a wrong one, but it's knowing what gets you what results and how it changes moving things around and how that can work to your advantage, because it's kind of the UK style of record making, where you have a sound and it may not be perfect, but then your next sound tries to make that sound perfect. 
 
23:58
So you might put a piano sound in and you close mic'd it and it's a bit of a tinny kind of clanky sound. There's no room to it, it's impersonal. It's like oh okay, now we could go back into the studio and get a beautiful C5 grand piano and do it properly, or we can just take that and we wanted to put an acoustic guitar in anyway. Let's not close mic the acoustic, let's put a mic across the room from it and get a bit of natural room and ambience to it. Then suddenly you have this contrasting clanky piano sound with this beautiful sweepy acoustic sound and you're starting to get a sound stage. 
 
24:37
You know, that's why, not just knowing a way to do things, but all the ways you can do things and experimenting. You can know how you can manipulate these sounds to really put things together and start to build something. Because a song and music's really music when you start to hear into it, because it kind of messes with you. It pulls you in, but then in being pulled into the song, you're actually inside the vocalist thing because they're they're always up front and centre, you're kind of really being drawn towards them. Yeah, it's a trick, you might be pulled towards the acoustic guitar, but you are leaning in and that's body language, that's telling, you're telling you, telling yourself that you are actually coming towards it. 
 
25:17 - Alexis (Host)
Yes, yes, yeah. 
 
25:19 - Terry (Guest)
Yeah, but yeah, like getting into this is really experimenting as much as you can and um there, there is no right answer um to things. So when you start looking, if you want to start looking at YouTube videos, just understand that it's an opinion and it might be useful to you and it might lead you astray as well. 
 
25:44 - Alexis (Host)
just go down that rabbit hole.  
 
25:48 - Terry (Guest)
It is going to be a rabbit hole, but so is anything that's worth doing, you know. 
 
25:50 - Alexis (Host)
If there was another creative that you could ask these questions and have them on the podcast. Who would you want to know these things about, and why? 
26:02 - Terry (Guest)
Oh look, I always love to hear from artists, because that really is where all this begins and ends. So I mean anyone who's doing those things, anyone that's making music that's really, really works, you know on another level, and speaks to you a bit more than just that face value. I'm always ready and fascinated to hear what they have to say. 
 
26:26 - Alexis (Host)
And no, it is interesting thing where we can be so similar and then so totally different all at the same time. 
 
26:36 - Terry (Guest)
That's the beautiful thing about it. It's supposed to represent humanity and we are all a little bit nutty in our own way. 
 
26:45 - Alexis (Host)
Yes, we are well, I know I am anyway. 
 
26:48 - Terry (Guest)
I wouldn't hold you to that that.
 
26:54 - Alexis (Host)
Thank you very much.  Terry Hart. Thank you so much for coming on Through The Creative Door.  
 
26:57 - Terry (Guest)
So nice chatting with you yeah, no, thank you, you too, yay, cheers.